Dragoon buffs and Ninja nerfs coming Dec 9th in patch 2.45

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Turn 2. If you only needed to silence twice a minute, a PLD, BRD, or NIN could solo-silence. They can't. MNK can, meaning that a single MNK silencer is capable of replacing two other silencing classes. Show me a place where NIN can do that.

Right, Monk can, and that's what makes Ninja CC less viable for this turn? Ninja's can at least contribute to the silencing duty, while a dragoon cannot. And ninja's can solo silence Turn 9, here's your example.

You've clearly never had an Ifrit party immediately disband because there was no PLD, even though there were more than enough stuns present to lock down Eruptions (nevermind that you can just dodge).

On the contrary, I could say I have cleared Ifrit HM without stuns at all. Your scrub encounter experience is too player influenced, rather than mechanic or class related and holds no value.

I'm admitting that they don't suffer DPS loss when you don't want stuns going out. I'm still saying that their CC abilities are outclassed by the other jobs.

And likewise, how Ninja gets outclassed by ONE class, Ninja outclasses TWO on the DPS category.

Because it disables auto attack and prevents you from accidentally releasing the mob right after you CC it (or killing the Renauds in T7). Of course, if you break a BRD's bind he has to wait 40 seconds to reapply while a SMN or BLM can try again immediately.

"Immediately". Prior to the nerf, if the binding effect is applied after the petrification ends, at least one healer always dies here due to build up enmity due to binding delay. This "immediately" you mentioned will result to another death and it's very likely it's the other healer due to build up enmity. So this "immediate" binding effect you mentioned will result to one death, if not more.

Sorry, CC in this game comes in three varieties:

1) Unnoticed because it's irrelevant to the fight.
2) Made necessary by fight mechanics.
3) Used to save a wipe or death.

NIN CC will only ever fall under 1 or maybe 2 if someone decides to let them. BLM Sleep and binds can be used for 3. It's rare, and it means something got screwed up somewhere, but it's still CC. You call it obsolete, but I've seen it used in 2.4, which has been out, what, a month or so? And it was used frequently in 2.2. And, heck, for a while people used it in T5 until SE patched it.

The only instance where 3 would be true would be pre-nerf Turn 7. Which is simply laughable now. And the thing about 2:
All casual, or casual-made content like BCOB and SCOB, can be completed with zero crowd control abilities. In harder content, which would be FCOB, CC is completely irrelevant. Even in SCOB Turn 4 before it gained echo could have been done without silence.

Notice how the first two mentions of tanks were from you?

Mention of tanks in those replies were relevant because Paladins is the only class out there that suffers from switching oaths. Which was necessary to underline the fact that ninja's can freely switch poisons. Monks would be a bad comparison in this case because they are free to switch stances like Ninja's.
The "tanks" mentioned here would refer to warrior. Which follows the same mechanics as the "restriction" you mentioned yourself. Still relevant.

Yes, and they do it while using part of their CC: an AOE slow.

And it's still perfectly doable without Holy or Shadow Flare.

[Daweism]

Snip

Create a char on Faerie and come parse me, I'm not pulling numbers out of my butt lol.

[Dunncan]

It IS a good enough test to see what different jobs can pull when allowed to consistently deal damage while maintaining their attacks.

That was my point. In a raid enviromnent, it won't be happening too much. What can you SOLID get with a dummie parse, is diferences between rotations and some gear combinations.

Beside that, you can try to extrapolate the data to a boss fight, but you can't simulate the machanics or how often they can hit you.

I'm not saying dummie parse are useless at all. But, people complaining about wich jobs needs buff/nerf based on this kind of data is, at least, funny. How a Job fit in different party setups, the synergy between jobs, how much utility it brings to the battle, how do mechanics bring it's rotation down, etc, etc, are parameters to make such a decision. The damage in no "adverse conditions" is only one, if not the last, to be taken in consideration.

[Dunncan]

I was chating with my static group yesterday, trying to figure out what SE is looking for with the current Jobs avaliable, and I got in a conclusion that not nly kinda fit with the lasts nerfs/buffs, but would be cool IMO.

For the DPS, the may be looking for giving, for each "role", 2 options between high damage and high utility. If you bring everything for this simple rule, in a future, you could easily see something like a MNK and a DRG competing for a spot in a static, with the first bringing more utility for the party (int debuff, mantra, etc) and the second a burst and pure higher damage. The same for SMN/BLM and... NIN and BRD.Melee. I would be not surprised if, in a near future, we start to see DPS setups like BRD, 2 Casters, 1 Melee or NIN, 2 Melees, 1 Caster or even BRD, NIN, 1 Caster, 1 Melee.

[Sleigh]

That was my point. In a raid enviromnent, it won't be happening too much. What can you SOLID get with a dummie parse, is diferences between rotations and some gear combinations.

Beside that, you can try to extrapolate the data to a boss fight, but you can't simulate the machanics or how often they can hit you.

I'm not saying dummie parse are useless at all. But, people complaining about wich jobs needs buff/nerf based on this kind of data is, at least, funny. How a Job fit in different party setups, the synergy between jobs, how much utility it brings to the battle, how do mechanics bring it's rotation down, etc, etc, are parameters to make such a decision. The damage in no "adverse conditions" is only one, if not the last, to be taken in consideration.

Let's just look at it DPS wise, because otherwise DRG will get blown away by MNK and NIN. I agree that dummy =/= raid DPS, but it's certainly got its merits. You actually are hitting a boss with all positionals T10-13 large chunks of the fights, larger than 80% of the fights are training dummy for melee. Mechanics are usually once every 20s or so, otherwise you just smack the boss.

T10 - occasional charge (if not the victim of charge, minimal difference). Adds benefit those who can multi-DoT stronger and can start their debuffs on the enemy with less loss. Final phase, outside of tether smacking and avoiding overlapping Heat Lightning it's pretty training dummy.
T11 - occasional missed positional on the boss due to Nerve Cloud and in/out mechanic. Only final phase is a true positional difference, and possibly the biggest time in T10-13 where it's not training dummy DPS (where DRG can get hurt the most due to their reliance on positionals).
T12 - Blackfires force momentary flanking. Otherwise just dummy. Add phase is just dummy for melee except you attack new enemies constantly. Final phase, no strategy should involve melee in fountains, just training dummy except for the occasional dodging of phoenix charges.
T13 - Megaflare can force rear positioning once a minute, Earth Shaker can force downtime. Otherwise it's just pure dummy 90% of the fight outside of the add phase where you restart your rotations constantly.

These new fights are all very melee friendly as a whole, and unlike previous turns, I'd say DRG does worse proportionately to a dummy than a MNK/NIN does because they're all just long, drawn out slug fests - T1-9, the melee difficulty was RNG forced downtime, and I considered the contrary usually true with RNG mechanics that could force GL3 drops. Now it's all about positionals getting compromised with large amounts of guaranteed uptime (other than T10 Wild Charge and T13 Earth Shakers).

Because of the low practicality and application of AoE, I generally look at two things when I go with who I like more on certain turns (ignoring the absolutely balance breaking MNK MNK comp which breaks the rules really bad) - forced breaks and/or mechanics downtime (which hurts MNK far more than DRG) and positional compromise (which right now rapes DRG and is a minor DPS loss for MNK). On a lesser note, BRD DPS (BRD does particularly well T9, for example, and this makes DRG a bit stronger than otherwise). Then you compare training dummy DPS and apply it to these things and you actually get a pretty fair assessment of which melee to bring, in my experience.

[Dunncan]

These new fights are all very melee friendly as a whole (...) Because of the low practicality and application of AoE, I generally look at two things when I go with who I like more on certain turns(...). Then you compare training dummy DPS and apply it to these things and you actually get a pretty fair assessment of which melee to bring, in my experience.

Agree with all of that, specially the last part. As I've said before, I can see the value of a dummie dps, but in most of the threads, I only see people taking exclusively it in consideration while crying for buffs/nerfs.

While it can often be used as a "base" parameter wich you'll then apply the fights particularities, the true job balance goes furter, and is intended to, for example, avoid

the absolutely balance breaking MNK MNK comp which breaks the rules really bad

But sadly, we can't see too much people analysing the big scope as you did right now.

[Zankes]

Create a char on Faerie and come parse me, I'm not pulling numbers out of my butt lol.

Can someone who can parse please go prove that this guy is pulling his numbers from his ass.

[Daweism]

Can someone who can parse please go prove that this guy is pulling his numbers from his ass.

I will have a static member parse me on upload it tmrw, I play on PS4. I parsed 515 DPS on dummy earlier tonight just to make sure there wasn't any huge discrepancies from the numbers that I got last time. Last chance to believe me before I slap you in the face with picture proof and anyone is welcome to come parse me, open door policy.

It's funny how you're so bent on disproving me than rather finding out what I'm doing different that may help you push your DPS higher. Anyone is welcome to parse me, and when they do I would like an apology from you calling me a liar by saying I am pulling numbers out of my ass.

[Jollyy5]

It's funny how you're so bent on disproving me than rather finding out what I'm doing different that may help you push your DPS higher. Anyone is welcome to parse me, and when they do I would like an apology from you calling me a liar by saying I am pulling numbers out of my ass.

I tried to find out by kindly asking for your rotation, my good sir.

[Orlandeu]

Create a char on Faerie and come parse me, I'm not pulling numbers out of my butt lol.

I'm not going through the hassle of creating a character on another server just to watch you play lol
You're not that special
All you gotta do is provide proof of your claims.