Alternatives to "nerfing" ninja

[Jeckyl_Tesla]

Uh, they announced it in a liveletter.

Two of the changes they were discussing were improvements to the damage done by DoT skills and the removal of positional requirements to achieve buffs/combo extensions (i.e., h-thrust still giving you the damage buff, but only yielding a 100-potency attack from the side.)

In the same liveletter they also announced intentions to 'adjust' the TP costs and damage of NIN abilities in response to complaints that NIN is, somehow, doing too much DPS by uh...being valid competition with MNK, something DRG never has been except in weird meta double BRD comps post 2.1. Generally, this would refer to a nerf.

Nobody here is crystal-balling.

Apologies, I'll make my comment clearer. I'm aware that they did that. But the exact details of said nerf, or buffs, have not come out. We don't know by how much they will be tweaking things. The exact numbers.

And because of that, NO ONE can say truly say at what state the classes will be after. The man is saying that these changes alone will put DRG higher DPS than NIN and have them compete with top DPS with MNKS.

No numbers. No maths. No facts. Only theory.

Thus, crystal balling.

[Krr]

The question being raised by any reasonable poster is not 'by how much', it's 'is it even necessary based on perceived facts in the game?'

DRG absolutely, certainly needed a buff. A great number of NIN players are former DRGs who got sick of being considered nonviable and secondary by their raid groups and being outshined by MNKs, because, well...look at the parse numbers, look at the sim numbers, look at the actual content participation. Everyone runs double MNK because it gives you Dragon Kick, The Good(tm) Version of Mantra, and The Best Melee DPS Ever. Also, of course, you don't need a healer babysitting you with Stoneskin so T12+ bosses don't instantly kill you with partywide magic damage if you're a MNK or NIN.

The NIN nerf on the other hand is what's being brought to question. TMK, world-firsters didn't even have time to equip them much less field them in actual endgame fights to see how they performed for their minimum-ilvl-runs, but we have odd nebulous reports of 'Look! I did 520 on a training dummy!' and 'B-but they're doing DPS on par with MNK and have more utility by being able to stun, silence, TA, and Goad!' never minding that DKick is basically going to be considered essential for Super Duper Hardcore Raiding, Mantra is an incredible boon for any 'stack up and pray you don't die' phase, and other basically doesn't matter.

[dday3six]

What are you, some sort of oracle? You can see the future? Or wait, could it be, you're a part of the SE team and know the EXACT changes to the potency and cooldowns of the skills?!

Or wait, no. You're just some other shmuck talking out of his rear, making grandiose comments on things you have actually no idea about.

/sigh

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-get-a-buff...

This thread has examples of that a very skilled Dragoon can do. T13 has also been downed with a DPS set up of 3 DRG, 1 BRD.

I fully support a buff to Dragoon. However the truth is a highly skilled Dragoon can deal comparable Damage to Ninja (though still behind Monk.) Dragoon is getting buffed, and in a way to remove some of the skill cap on it's higher tier DPS, so it's not outside of the realm of possibility to say post buff Dragoon can out DPS Ninja.

[Crevox]

Ninja needed a nerf. It brings the best utility and also does very high damage, with not much difficulty.

Difficulty shouldn't justify high damage, but either way, it simply does too much damage for the huge amount of powerful utility it brings, along with how little it is negatively affected by encounter mechanics. This, on top of the fact it doesn't have the huge TP issues something like Monk has... yeah, it needed changes.

[Jeckyl_Tesla]

The question being raised by any reasonable poster is not 'by how much', it's 'is it even necessary based on perceived facts in the game?'

DRG absolutely, certainly needed a buff. A great number of NIN players are former DRGs who got sick of being considered nonviable and secondary by their raid groups and being outshined by MNKs, because, well...look at the parse numbers, look at the sim numbers, look at the actual content participation. Everyone runs double MNK because it gives you Dragon Kick, The Good(tm) Version of Mantra, and The Best Melee DPS Ever. Also you don't need a healer babysitting you with Stoneskin so T12+ bosses don't instantly kill you with partywide magic damage.

I have no complaints about DRGs being buffed. They truly need it and I welcome it.


The problem about NINs, is as the Dev team themselves have stated, they wanted their DPS to be lower than that of a MNK due to Trick Attack alone. That move alone, simply means that NIN should never, ever, be higher DPS than a MNK (or I daresay, a DRG. But less so a DRG, due to Disembowel helping the BRD so much)


With Trick Attack, NIN parses higher than MNK. Yeah, sure, Mantra is great, and always will. But although Dragonkick is great in this coil, it wasn't that amazing in the last two. It was decent, but it wasn't one of the things that made MNK viable.

Trick attack, so along as the NIN parses decently, will always make a NIN viable. Always. 10% DMG, every 60 seconds is HUGE and always will be.

Also this 1k word bullshit needs to end.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-get-a-buff...

This thread has examples of that a very skilled Dragoon can do. T13 has also been downed with a DPS set up of 3 DRG, 1 BRD.

I fully support a buff to Dragoon. However the truth is a highly skilled Dragoon can deal comparable Damage to Ninja (though still behind Monk.) Dragoon is getting buffed, and in a way to remove some of the skill cap on it's higher tier DPS, so it's not outside of the realm of possibility to say post buff Dragoon can out DPS Ninja.

DRG is by far the worst DPS in the game. Not unviable though. I know that fully well. But the problem is, classes are not really balanced for what the top end DPSers can do. (Though I could be wrong) It's great that 0.01% of the DRG community are skilled enough to pull those sort of numbers. But that requires some intense sort of knowledge and skill of the class to do. The average joe still needs more unfortunately.

I will however, not be convinced of anything until I see the true numbers on my screen. That was my point.

I see that a lot of these forums. People making grandiose comments when they actually have nothing to back it up.

[dday3six]

The problem about NINs, is as the Dev team themselves have stated, they wanted their DPS to be lower than that of a MNK due to Trick Attack alone. That move alone, simply means that NIN should never, ever, be higher DPS than a MNK (or I daresay, a DRG. But less so a DRG, due to Disembowel helping the BRD so much)


With Trick Attack, NIN parses higher than MNK. Yeah, sure, Mantra is great, and always will. But although Dragonkick is great in this coil, it wasn't that amazing in the last two. It was decent, but it wasn't one of the things that made MNK viable.

Trick attack, so along as the NIN parses decently, will always make a NIN viable. Always. 10% DMG, every 60 seconds is HUGE and always will be.

If we are going to give all the increased damage from TA to Ninja, then we would need to factor in what 2 Monks can do as well. Being able to always use Bootshine and have Dragon Kick debuff is equally huge.

[Jeckyl_Tesla]

If we are going to give all the increased damage from TA to Ninja, then we would need to factor in what 2 Monks can do as well. Being able to always use Bootshine and have Dragon Kick debuff is equally huge.

That's fine. If there are two MNKs in the group, you do this.

If there is a BRD and a DRG, you do this.

But it doesn't matter what the actual composition, if there a NIN in the group, you add 105 from EVERYONE. Even the Tanks, even the healers spamming Stone II. There is a huge difference here.

[dday3six]

DRG is by far the worst DPS in the game. Not unviable though. I know that fully well. But the problem is, classes are not really balanced for what the top end DPSers can do. (Though I could be wrong) It's great that 0.01% of the DRG community are skilled enough to pull those sort of numbers. But that requires some intense sort of knowledge and skill of the class to do. The average joe still needs more unfortunately.

I will however, not be convinced of anything until I see the true numbers on my screen. That was my point.

I see that a lot of these forums. People making grandiose comments when they actually have nothing to back it up.

Well that's the problem, when people say Ninja out DPS's Monk they are often talking about a better skilled Ninja vs a lesser skilled Monk.

That's fine. If there are two MNKs in the group, you do this.

If there is a BRD and a DRG, you do this.

But it doesn't matter what the actual composition, if there a NIN in the group, you add 105 from EVERYONE. Even the Tanks, even the healers spamming Stone II. There is a huge difference here.

The is the problem I have with adding the TA damage for the whole raid. It's a mass of assumption. It assumes everyone is attacking the same target for those ten seconds, and no matter how coordinated a raid is that rarely happens.

[Violyre]

Instead of nerfing NIN, we should buff everyone else and lower their TP costs!

This post has been brought to you by Satire.

[Elazu]

Ninja needed a nerf. It brings the best utility and also does very high damage, with not much difficulty.

Monks and Dragon Kick would like to have a word with you.