Ninja damage insane over monk

[ChriZirhC]

monk's dps ceiling is higher

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

There's something fundamentally wrong with this whole discussion :P

Prior to the arrival of ninja, the forums were full of how bard's (relatively) low DPS was justified for the utility they bring to the table while being able to DPS. Petitions were made for it to have their DPS increased and debates were held why it shouldn't be increased because of practically one reason: Utility.

Now that Ninja is here, their high damage is justified for it's "difficulty" of play. While fundamentally ninja is pretty much the same as any other melee class: Keep up debuffs, keep up dots and keep buffs on CD and everything becomes muscle memory with enough experience with it. There's one major difference between ninja and other melee: Fat Utility Pack. As discussed in this topic earlier, ninja's have enough dps to be on par with monks while out damaging dragoons on punching bag encounters (T6, T8, T11 you name it). But they also bring a lot of utility to the table that other melees can't do (as well):
-Slashing debuff in case of two paladins or in favour for warrior dps/enmity building
-Party-wide damage increase with the vulnerability up debuff for a short period.
-Goad steals a bit away from bard's utility kit. Although it's not party wide, goad does not reduce the user's or receiver's damage - Unlike paeon
-Less prone to TP starved compared to other melees. Bring a setup with 2 tanks, 2 ninja's and 2 casters and you don't even need a bard any more for resource-heavy encounters.
-Healthy kit to do both single target damage as well as area damage well. This is also much more sustainable compared to dragoon and monk AoE.

The utility a ninja brings, both obvious and less obvious benefits (TP reasons), clearly outshines their other melee counterparts. But somehow their dps that could compete with monks is reasonable, while a bard's is not? This reeks of hypocrisy.

[Leonus]

The slamnk no debuff goes two ways, some believe that it should be the wars job to keep it up, others believe it's the ninja. However, it was about time we got a dps class with some synergy with the tanks.

The party wide damage increase is for 10 seconds, once every minute and that if it's used on cue, every time. I don't think it compares to brds foes, and really is more in line with dragon kick and disembowel to me. Those debuffs are able to be kept up the entire fight to where the drg/brd combo take full advantage. If you're stacked up with 2 mnks, the same applies with DK. Overall the damage increased by TA over a 6 minute fight is 1.6% overall in a 6 minute fight (as stated earlier).

Goad can only be used once every 3 minutes, I don't consider it stealing from bards utility as it only affects one person where as brds can effect every melee in the party. Let's also be honest, brds do not like to use paeon as it lowers their dps. When in all actuality, if you do the one tank/2 melee/2 caster/1 brd/2 healers it's more raid damage to use paeon when the melee dps start to run low on tp.

Ninja, so far is less prone to tp starvation. Still can't use Goad on themselves though, and tp starvation will eventually happen.

Ninja's aoe damage is not as good as people want to believe. It's just better than mnks. I think as far as melee dps aoe goes it's Drg > Nin > mnk.

The only melee dps ninja really outshines currently is drg. It doesn't pose a real threat to anyone else's spot in a group. Drgs are still awesome, but the masses make it out to be less than that.

Ninja also still has to obey the melee range mechanics that brd can dodge a still dps continuously. Along with all the utility that brd has over every other class... brds with Mnk level dps is too much.

If anything, drg needs to be brought up to be more in line with Mnk and nin in utility and damage.

This is all my opnion though.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

The party wide damage increase is for 10 seconds, once every minute and that if it's used on cue, every time. I don't think it compares to brds foes, and really is more in line with dragon kick and disembowel to me. Those debuffs are able to be kept up the entire fight to where the drg/brd combo take full advantage. If you're stacked up with 2 mnks, the same applies with DK. Overall the damage increased by TA over a 6 minute fight is 1.6% overall in a 6 minute fight (as stated earlier).

The increased damage from the vulnerability debuff applies to the entire party, rather than just casters. Everyone benefits from it and the longer the encounter, the more obvious the difference will become. Foe's Requiem can last up to 60 seconds if used from the start. Re-using it later on the fight will prove to be difficult unless there are a lot of pauses which prevents the need of Paeon. Even when re-used mid battle, it won't be for the full duration, if any at all. Meanwhile: Trick Attack can always be applied every 60 seconds for 10 seconds worth regardless of personal resources.
You also mentioned it's more in line with Dragon Kick and Disembowel. Ninja's get their own slashing resistance debuff as well. If the warrior applies it instead of ninja, they have something similar to a dragon kick-slave like two monks would have. Instead: You're sacrificing tank damage over dps-class damage. The fact Ninja has their own slashing debuff at their disposal - Better yet, have the possibility for the tank class to do this for them - voids the comparison with dragon kick and disembowel.

Goad can only be used once every 3 minutes, I don't consider it stealing from bards utility as it only affects one person where as brds can effect every melee in the party. Let's also be honest, brds do not like to use paeon as it lowers their dps. When in all actuality, if you do the one tank/2 melee/2 caster/1 brd/2 healers it's more raid damage to use paeon when the melee dps start to run low on tp.

Bring another ninja instead of a bard and you'll have:
Another DPS that deals damage comparable with monk
Double vulnerability debuff up time
Ninja's that can Goad each other or the tank if they desperately need it.

Bring another ninja instead of another tank in favour of solo tanking and you'll have:
Yet another DPS comparable with monk
Another 10 seconds worth of vulnerability up time

With ninja's being able to goad each other it would solve the following:

Ninja, so far is less prone to tp starvation. Still can't use Goad on themselves though, and tp starvation will eventually happen.

In that sense, a group composition with 3 ninja's will not only steal the bard's job, it'll offer a lot of DPS as group whole. Heck, bring four ninja's! 40 seconds worth of vulnerability down up time!

The only melee dps ninja really outshines currently is drg. It doesn't pose a real threat to anyone else's spot in a group. Drgs are still awesome, but the masses make it out to be less than that.

The only real utility the dragoon brings to a group is increased bard damage. Other than that there's no real reason to bring a bard. A ninja has relatively no need to wind-up their damage, which would also beat the edge dragoon had over monks: Melee burst ability.

Ninja also still has to obey the melee range mechanics that brd can dodge a still dps continuously. Along with all the utility that brd has over every other class... brds with Mnk level dps is too much.

Melees can stay glued to the targets while dodging like bards can. The only encounter where this is not the case would be Titan Extreme unless you are willing to eat a bomb. It's not like the bosses are ants: Their hit boxes are huge. All around it there is plenty of space to avoid directed AoE if you happen to be in danger of hitting it. Even Ramuh's Thunder Spark would hardly hinder you if you time your dodging right.

That mindset is very common too. While it's true, bards are also always the first pick to handle movement heavy mechanics. Handling mechanics does hurt their DPS: They lose out on auto attack damage.

[Leonus]

The vuaterability debuff, if being taken advantage of like that will be nerfed, much like smns on the past with their dots.

The slashing debuff is very much so comparable to DK or disembowel. I also believe it goes in line with the melee dps being able to buff it's own damage. Mnk has DK, drg has disembowel and nin has DE.

The vulnerability up effects everyone, yes, but for a shorter duration than a lot of others debuffs do. As time does go on, you do get more damage out of it, however when properly geared for the content the fights last less time the more people get familiar with the fight.

I personally don't know of any groups that exclude brds. Having a brd in your group is to much of a benefit. Mp restoration, foes, tp restoration, kiting ability, constant damage. Not many groups are willing to give that up when brds make the party overall more efficient than stacking other jobs. Stacking two nins doesn't give foes for the casters, group wide tp, the healers their Mp in tight situations... etc.

Again, if people stack nins to take advantage of TA, it will be nerfed like the one dot that smns got nerfed on. TA effect won't be able to be applied fo xx amount of time. You can bring a drg to buff brd damage (maybe higher damage after drg buffs) or a mnk for higher dps.

Melee can stay glued yes, but at times this is not always feasible. And anytime a dps moves away from the boss, the loose auto attack damage.

99% of parties want a brd included in the party.

I'm a nin and i want a brd in my parties. D:

[Eardstapa]

I really want to see someone clear T10-13 with 4-5 ninjas....

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

The slashing debuff is very much so comparable to DK or disembowel. I also believe it goes in line with the melee dps being able to buff it's own damage. Mnk has DK, drg has disembowel and nin has DE.

You weren't talking about Dancing Edge earlier:

The party wide damage increase is for 10 seconds, once every minute and that if it's used on cue, every time. I don't think it compares to brds foes, and really is more in line with dragon kick and disembowel to me. Those debuffs are able to be kept up the entire fight to where the drg/brd combo take full advantage. If you're stacked up with 2 mnks, the same applies with DK. Overall the damage increased by TA over a 6 minute fight is 1.6% overall in a 6 minute fight (as stated earlier).

And the fact it can be taken advantage of like that warrants for a nerf. And I do believe you mean the effect of Virus, rather than DoTs. But a nerf to prevent back-to-back or rapid application of Trick Attack would the least Square-Enix need to introduce so other classes don't lose their functionality/utility (in this case: Bard)

[CrystalMagus]

Yeah I cant out DPS a monk in a boss fight. When killing mobs and such yeah I can all day long. Its all about positional. And we have more positionals than just one. There is sneak attack and trick attack too, which gives a hella nasty debuff to the enemy.

[Leonus]

Yea, virus.

Ah, my bad, I meant to also talk about DE. I still do believe that the TA effect is somewhat in line with foes but applies to everyone and for less time. I don't think the effect is OP, just if people are able to stack it. In that case it should be nerfed.

[Viridiana]

Yeah I cant out DPS a monk in a boss fight. When killing mobs and such yeah I can all day long. Its all about positional. And we have more positionals than just one. There is sneak attack and trick attack too, which gives a hella nasty debuff to the enemy.

But there's no reason to use sneak attack once you have trick attack, so it's basically one positional ad a different positional you never use. >_>