Ninja damage insane over monk

[Alphras]

The mudra mechanic is not as complex as you make it to be. It only matters that you get the last one right and that you don't press one of them twice. You don't even need to/can't weave them between weapon skills and since we are talking about single target dps, there are only three combinations that matter at all (Suiton, Huton, Raiton). The rest are standard melee dps mechanics that Monks and Dragoons need to take care of too (plus the positional requirements that the Ninja does not have).

Imo the complexity for MNK comes from knowing the fights and the boss movement well enough to maximize GL uptime. I cannot really talk about DRG, since I never played one in endgame, but I know that they get pretty messed up if they don't get their Heavy Thrust up and they have quite a lot of off globals to manage.

Edit: And saying one class "deserves" to be top dps because of complexity is pretty messed up in a mmorpg environment anyway. Every class should be as valid as the others for a certain role in a raid scenario and we will see if that is the case (and square will nerf the Ninja or buff the other jobs if it isn't).

[Aphel]

The mudra mechanic is not as complex as you make it to be. It only matters that you get the last one right and that you don't press one of them twice. You don't even need to/can't weave them between weapon skills and since we are talking about single target dps, there are only three combinations that matter at all (Suiton, Huton, Raiton).

Positional requirements aren't a big deal. When you've raided as a monk it becomes second nature to you, keeping 3 stacks of greased lightning is not that difficult unless it's forced upon you.

Three combinations that are suited for raiding, more if you want to slow down mobs (dreadknights), bind enemy targets/slow in pvp. Yes it is complex and a messed up mudra = 360 potency loss in Raiton's case. It is way more complex than a monk I can assure you. Making sure that your ninjutsu is always on cooldown, taking into account how fast the mob dies (and hence alter your dot/buff strategies). As a monk/dragoon, all I have to do is leave out 1 dot/debuff. For a Ninja that translates into 2-3 mudras that I have to remember how to cast properly in a split second. Remember that these mudras are 0.5sec recasts. The amount of complexity and depth is way more, thus more fulfilling for me. For doing this amount of work with 0 mistakes, I expect Ninja users who can perfect such feats to excel at DPS.

If I could just cast Fire/Blizzard/Thunder with a 3-button DPS rotation coming out top on DPS charts, why should I bother with Ninja?

As to Dragoons, they have the best almost on-demand burst in the game. That life-surge/full thrust combo is unbeatable when you factor in jumps too (880potency from just a simple 1-2-3 full thrust combo, compared to Ninja's 770 potency). Ninja can burst more but it requires quite a bit of preparation right in the middle of battle (suiton, but requires you to check if that burst is necessary vs your own buff upkeep).

[Ehayte]

Since we are playing the conjecture game...

If NIN is unchanged, my new favorite group composition for a 1-tank scenario would be NIN/NIN/DRG/BRD/SMN/WAR/SCH/WHM

- 100% up-time on Storm's Path
- 100% up-time on piercing debuff (forget what its called)
- 33% up-time on Trick Attack
- 2 Goads
- Battle Rez
- Foe's

Can you imagine the 20 second bursts that could be done with TA, Piece+, Slash+, Ninjitsu, DRG DPS, and fester burn?

[Leonus]

It's not just raiding as mnk either, it's drg too. Positional requirements aren't that hard. I don't know why everyone says they are and bases the difficulty of a job off of it.
Drg may not be the top, but is still really good.

[ShaolinMike]

EdwinFade is 100% right. Please read the entire ability list before you condemn a skill as useless. As stated in so many other posts, the Suiton buff allows you to use Sneak Attack / Trick Attack in battle, without needing to hide. Also, the buff from Trick Attack is significant: Good DPS players can whoop a lot of @$$ in 10s, regardless of what job they're using. It's basically a party-wide Raging Strikes. You're welcome.

[SpecialKK]

EdwinFade is 100% right. Please read the entire ability list before you condemn a skill as useless. As stated in so many other posts, the Suiton buff allows you to use Sneak Attack / Trick Attack in battle, without needing to hide. Also, the buff from Trick Attack is significant: Good DPS players can whoop a lot of @$$ in 10s, regardless of what job they're using. It's basically a party-wide Raging Strikes. You're welcome.

This might be one of the few macros I'll make for NIN. I typically am not fond of "alert" macros, but letting your party know to unleash all heck in a 10s span might be a good "tell"

[DenariusJay]

I've fought some Ninjas in a 1v1 with my Monk in frontlines - there DPS is no joke, even on GL3 monk I couldn't stand toe to toe with one. I know its pvp its a different ball park then PvE, but when people catch wind with how good they are, its gonna be all bad. Wouldn't be surprised to see the nerf bat coming there way in the next few months

[Snugglebutt]

Not surprised would be a MNK player who made this thread complaining that another class has the nerve to come up to or touch it's high single target dps pedestal especially the use of melodramatic tone of thread title trying to make it sound like such is a lot bigger problem than actually is. NiN DMG is not 'insane' compared to MNK at all.

I have a level 50 female second character which is MNK and from what I have seen so far NiN is around on par with MNK in terms of single target damage over the course of an entire fight at least in dungeons and raids, trials and such rather than normal generic non-instanced mobs given NiN has high burst DMG that does not have so many positional requirements as MNK and as such generic non-instanced mobs would naturally fall quicker to high burst DPS rather than slower built up but high sustained DMG after GL3 etc...

Not forgetting sometimes might be slightly higher DPS and sometimes slightly lower DPS in dungeons but due to fights lasting quite a lot longer positional's and sustained DPS comes much more into play over burst DMG quite often...even then that's still down to the players ability to use the classes whether playing NiN or MNK plus what gear they have and their levels of concentration.

If anything needs some changes I think it would be DRG increased slightly to be on par with MNK and NiN perhaps, alternatively if want them to be more equal you would need to nerf MNK's and NiN to be on par with DRG but if you just want NiN nerfed and not MNK despite MNK having a pretty big advantage over DRG already then I am sorry but sounds to me you just want to continue standing on your pedestal looking down on the other single target melee classes.

You shouldn't be basing your argument of being overpowered (which I disagree with anyways) on generic open world mobs however because there is a big difference between nuking a non-dungeon mob taken out by high burst damage in a short time compared to a long lasting dungeon style boss which requires sustainability and bigger reliance on positional's. MNK's are great single target raid boss killing machines still, NiN's are just as good but DRG is still lagging behind the two a bit in my opinion.

[Danbo05]

You're comparing a ninja to a monk, via open world trash. You're already doing it wrong.

[Aphel]

After playing with Ninja more, I've come to realize that some aspects are a little broken. Here's one of them:

1. Huton gives you 70sec of increased attack speed. At first I thought this was autoattacks but it extends to skillspeed. I'm not geared but before Huton = 2.42sec GCD. After Huton this is reduced to 2.05secs, for a full 70 secs duration.

Monk's GL3: +27% damage, +15% skillspeed, stacks need to build up and maintain.
Ninja Huton: +15% skillspeed, 70 sec duration. No damage bonus but you have poison = +20% permanent damage buff.

This clearly is a little excessive.

As to positional requirements, I think it's justified. I've ran many dungeons now and keeping track of Huiton/Trick/2 dots/1 debuff (because there wasn't any warrior)/Kassatsu/Mug/Jugulate/5 other cross class CDs/Mudra execution, takes A LOT out of your brain. This isn't Fire3->Fire1 till low->Blizz3->Thunder2->repeat. The complexity is mind-blowing and adding more positional requirements will fry your brain.

Before anyone complains about lack of positional requirement, get a Ninja to 50. Run a few dungeons or even go raid, making sure everything is up 100%, no mistakes. Then if you still feel they need more positionals I will worship the very ground you walk on.