Myth Message being used to excluded players

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

This has gotten way too off track, and even I am to blame.

Main fact here is, if you use the bonus message purely as a means to quit, kick, or judge other players, you are wrong. Now, if you set PF criteria looking for experienced clears or any other requirements (extreme or not) and someone not meeting said criteria joins, yes, you are within your rights to kick them out.

Now, if you use the bonus message as a means to judge skill, again, you are wrong. Circumstances are rarely so black and white. And there are too many possibilities why to even note.

Still, the bonus message means nothing more than someone has yet to clear it, and an incentive has been provided to help them. Don't forget, plenty of times before. . . That was you.

[Ellatrix]

I would not be surprised if you yourself had been carried all the way up onto that pedestal you so proudly look down on others from.

Just wanted to pull this out. I currently have the only Dreadwyrm weapon on the server that I play on. I totally got carried.

Main fact here is, if you use the bonus message purely as a means to quit, kick, or judge other players, you are wrong. Now, if you set PF criteria looking for experienced clears or any other requirements (extreme or not) and someone not meeting said criteria joins, yes, you are within your rights to kick them out.

Now, if you use the bonus message as a means to judge skill, again, you are wrong. Circumstances are rarely so black and white. And there are too many possibilities why to even note.

Still, the bonus message means nothing more than someone has yet to clear it, and an incentive has been provided to help them. Don't forget, plenty of times before. . . That was you.

Why is so hard to understand that putting "no 100 bonus" in PF is synonymous with "previous clears only", which you seem fine with? And why is it that the players who don't do content where previous experience is incredibly important for a farm keep arguing that... it isn't? You're in an FC of soldiery superheros; you've seemingly not challenged content that requires a substantial time investment to learn.

[Brill_]

Why is so hard to understand that putting "no 100 bonus" in PF is synonymous with "previous clears only", which you seem fine with? And why is it that the players who don't do content where previous experience is incredibly important for a farm keep arguing that... it isn't? You're in an FC of soldiery superheros; you've seemingly not challenged content that requires a substantial time investment to learn.

Why can't you understand that previous does not equal skilled? Which is what people have been arguing in this thread. If you want skilled people for farming, fine. But assessing the skill of a player based on them having the bonus message or not is the worst way to do that.

[Ellatrix]

Why can't you understand that previous does not equal skilled? Which is what people have been arguing in this thread. If you want skilled people for farming, fine. But assessing the skill of a player based on them having the bonus message or not is the worst way to do that.

Because you're catering to an outlier. When you build a PF, you go for the norm. And the norm is, if you've cleared it, you stand a significantly better chance of knowing what to do than if you haven't.

Why do people who don't do raid content keep coming in here saying I'm wrong? Go clear stuff if you're so good and don't need prior experience to do so.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Because you're catering to an outlier. When you build a PF, you go for the norm. And the norm is, if you've cleared it, you stand a significantly better chance of knowing what to do than if you haven't.

Why do people who don't do raid content keep coming in here saying I'm wrong? Go clear stuff if you're so good and don't need prior experience to do so.

I suppose I am rather abnormal. All the same. . . done!

[Ellatrix]

I suppose I am rather abnormal. All the same. . . done!

I'm eagerly awaiting to see you fully decked out in high allagan when your lodestone next updates.

[Ellatrix]

I see no where in your list of things you like to do "farm raid content with pugs". Which is the entire premise for making exclusionary parties to restrict them to people who have already proven the ability to farm.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I see no where in your list of things you like to do "farm raid content with pugs". Which is the entire premise for making exclusionary parties to restrict them to people who have already proven the ability to farm.

I should note, generally I don't farm. No real reason. I just don't. I did T5 once and that was because I REALLY wanted that bow. And I got it. Beyond that, I don't actively do it myself, but I'm not above helping someone out. And while yes, it's safe to assume anyone in a farm party has a clear, if they by chance don't, it's not a dealbreaker. The issue is, due to your bad experience you mentioned once, you assume hasn't cleared = isn't capable of clearing = can't farm. Should they try? Perhaps not. Is it impossible? I've proven otherwise, yet that seems not to register, again because to you bonus message = hasn't cleared (true) = can't clear (not necessarily true) = can't farm (unable to be proven based on previous criteria). And I'm not the only one who's noted this. Where perhaps are we not understanding each other?

A driven player will find a way to clear. . .Eventually, by networking with other players who did well, I cleared it in a pug. Then I built my own static, with 7 other people who had no clear yet, spent a week training them and then I had a static capable of clearing T5. So no, I don't need your lecture; I've been there before. I never expect more of someone else that I cannot do or have not done myself. . . This is why linkshells exist. And why you want to keep networking with players, and playing with a group to progress together.

Later EDIT: Bingo. NOW we're on the same page. Many of these people are, in a perspective sense, untested. Just because they say they've cleared it, or haven't but know the fight is still something that's ultimately proven in the heat of battle. Farming aside, shutting the door in their faces purely from the bonus message is only counterproductive. I simply choose to give the benefit of doubt. And again, while your criteria is - from a knowledgeable perspective - unnecessarily high, if that's what gets the job done for you, so be it.

What you've acquired from farming truthfully is still not a measure of how skilled you are, and don't take that personally. Some people get the win dead on the ground, or was the reason the party ALMOST wipes and has to fight hard to recover, and just so happens to get their drop. I've got a humble 12 T5 victories, and only the bow and the BLM weapon I can't use (yet) to show for it. Healer boots and BRD gloves from 6. Nothing to show for 7 at all yet. . . None of that speaks of how well I performed in any of those roles. So while I understand that you're highly capable of farming, supported by the criteria you set for your personal parties, it can't rightly be considered relevant to the topic at hand.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Why is so hard to understand that putting "no 100 bonus" in PF is synonymous with "previous clears only", which you seem fine with? And why is it that the players who don't do content where previous experience is incredibly important for a farm keep arguing that... it isn't? You're in an FC of soldiery superheros; you've seemingly not challenged content that requires a substantial time investment to learn.

I am not disagreeing with the fact that yes, it essentially means the same thing. I DO disagree with the fact that "previous experience is necessary for a farm" PURELY because I myself have shattered that idea. Many times. Did I lie about not having cleared it? No. I was upfront about it, knew my stuff, and while it may seem almost crazy to think, the rest of the party took a chance trusting me to know what to do and do my part. And we were all rewarded. Let's be fair though, it is generally accepted and understood that if you're joining a farm party, you've cleared the content.

You had a bad experience once. Maybe more than once. So have many of us. I farmed T5 5 times in one night with a great party I gathered in the PF (no threatening messages or "no bonus message" comments) before someone experienced came along and ruined it by performing poorly, possibly intentionally. Was I upset? Yes. Did it stop me? No. Has it driven me to set unnecessarily high requirements for kill/farm parties? No. Not ever. Fact is, if you can hang, and do what needs to be done, you're welcome with me, clear or no. Why? Cause there's plenty of things I CAN clear, I just haven't. Lack of interest, lack of a good party, or even just lack of trying. What makes me so different than others?

As for my FC, they are mostly casual players I've known for many years and I am quite close with, EVEN if we have different goals or ways we enjoy the game.When they were grinding out Animus/Novus content, I was joining every T5 group I could. Learning and pushing myself to reach the top. Teaching every other person I could find who was interested in doing so. At the time, they simply weren't interested (and inversely, I wasn't interested in Relic content.) When they were solely focused on Hunts and gearing up, I was getting my first T6/T7 clears, with a static I ultimately had to leave due to work schedules. A static that not long after that collectively left my server. Does it bother me sometimes? Yes. Does it stop me? No. Fact is, I've seen/done/tried too much to see things so black and white. I've seen farm parties full of experience fail hard, and learning parties full of "bonuses" if you will, come together and get the win. I've failed as much as I've succeeded, and bonus messages or previous clears have rarely been the reason why.

[Kinseykinz]

I see no where in your list of things you like to do "farm raid content with pugs". Which is the entire premise for making exclusionary parties to restrict them to people who have already proven the ability to farm.

Roiiiight. Because I'm sure you got your fancy:

Just wanted to pull this out. I currently have the only Dreadwyrm weapon on the server that I play on. I totally got carried.

.

by Pugging it on your server.

You are in a static. Which means you play and grow in skill with the same 7 other people each week. Likely, you even spend a lot of your energy grinding said content. That is fine. But all your 'having the first weapon on the server' proves is that collectively, your team is good and works well together. You each might have flaws, and faults...but you all also cover those faults and flaws...like a good team should.

But you're not Pugging this content. And even if you did, even if you were the most skilled player in the group, if the other 7 people couldn't also play to the same level, you likely would fail. And. It. Would. Not. Be. Your. Fault.

So, you keep demeaning and speaking down to 'the non-raiders' like once again, they personally don't have skill, because they either haven't cleared (for reasons you don't know btw) or don't possess weapons you deem 'worthy' enough. But many people who have yet to even enter T6+ let alone T10+ haven't done so, not because they lack the skill, or ability to learn it, but because they lack the solid group of 7 they can work with to achieve the victory. You keep implying their individual skill is what is holding them back, that they are simply bad players. You have no proof of this. All you have is proof that they likely don't have a static and/or time to join one....and likely that they lack the same desire as you to be 'cutting edge'. But again, you don't need to be cutting edge to be good....nor do good players always beat every battle they try. (You think of yourself as skilled yet I bet you could count into the 100's the times you've spent wiping out to things).

Honestly, it's now the how/why you make your PF parties that I find condescending, but rather the reasons you give as justifications to it...or your constant assumptions that 'if you aren't clearing T13 like me, then you have no right to speak'. Your time is NOT any more or less valuable than anyone else's playing this game. You aren't better. You have decided that your goals in game are to be at the cutting edge of content. Great for you. But you didn't do it alone. That shiny weapon you bragged about, it belongs to 7 other people as much as it belongs to you.

Think of it another way: You boss tells you 'Hey Ellatrix, sorry about this but I need you to work overseas in a remote location for 2 months, you'll have to rely on your phone for most communication b/c internet is spotty etc' So you have to step away from the game for 2-3 months. Do you expect your static to wait for you? Do you think your personal playing skill will diminish so greatly over that time that you will be 'unworthy' of your own FC/static, and groups you play with? Likely you'll think of yourself as the same top-tier player...but you would be likely behind in some content. Now, would you then think it fair for people to start saying/implying that you are unskilled at the game because you aren't on the absolute cutting edge of the game's content? I think this would piss you off.

And sure, your crew might catch you back up in no time, and they might even tell your rep 'hey our guy is back so thanks but uh, we'd like him to be in the static again' ....but they also might tell you 'sorry, but we like the new dude, you'll have to find a new group' And if you had to find a new crew, that would ALSO take time, and mean you'd likely need to PF/pug your way through some content....content you might not have cleared, but be plenty skilled and practiced to do. Now, how would you hope a party leader would treat you? As some nooblet, still wet behind the ears, or would you hope that if you were honest with them in your experience/skill they would be honest and fair with you?

All people are trying to say to you is this:

We get that 'No 100 tomes' is a quick, dirty way to say 'have experience' ...the problem is, it doesn't tell you that they can replicate it.

Yes, the '100 tome' bonus means someone has yet to clear, but it doesn't tell you WHY they didn't clear it, or if they possess or lack the skills to clear it w/ you. Of course folk without the confidence, and knowledge of the battle shouldn't be joining a Farm party...but you can simply put 'experienced with entire battle only/if 100 tome please /t me what your exact battle experience is before joining' You likely will get some solid talent this way, fill your party faster, AND be better received on your server.

More specifically, using the 100 tome message as the only measure of skill for a party, is wrong. Because it is possible, and honestly this happens more than it should, for people to get their 'win' without even being alive most of the battle. Or they didn't die, but they also were 'carried' in other ways. (personally were very low DPS/or were OT in a 1-tank battle/or healed 30% of what the other healer did etx) But again, if YOUR only requirement is 'no 100 tome message' then you are letting in these folks, that likely will wipe your group, and NOT letting in others that might actually, perform their role well enough that you walk away with a win on the first group attempt...even though it's their first clear.


Heck, before the tome bonus message came about, the most common Farm Party Message I'd see on my server was 'Farm party, 3 strikes you're out/don't be bad' And to be frank, that seems to be more on point with whom you actually wish to recruit to your group. People who can 1-2 shot it. And be reliable. Really, this is probably still the message you should use when creating farm parties today. Because it gives you access to the folk you really want, allows you some potential 100 tome here or there but also gives you the freedom to exclude people not up to the task.



Finally, you keep wanting to challenge people into beating T9 or even beyond before reset on Tuesday...or to deck out their character in their full High -Allagan.

Why don't you challenge yourself. Why don't you personally, and alone, join a learning/clear party with 7 other people who haven't cleared this SAME content you keep telling others to do. Do this via PF. And with 7 strangers, with different degrees of skill in the battle, win it. Because, I. Bet. You. Can't. Not with 7 strangers....and not re-starting with 5-7 more strangers every single time. But I ALSO bet you won't think 'gee, I must be the one who sucks'.

Heck, even within your own static, there have probably been times when you knew your role of the battle, and could do it flawlessly but there was still that phase or issue other people were having in the group that caused a wipe. And you accepted this, because you understood, that you can't win on your own....and they will get it soon. Also, because you have a connection with these folk, you don't mind spending extra time while they learn. Now, no one expects you to 'farm' with such people....people who don't have it down like you yet. But if you saw a PF group looking for your role, you had mastered on that battle, but not cleared, you'd hope you could join in.

My point: There is just a point when you personally actually know, and learned the battle, and can do your part of it well. But that doesn't mean you'll win, because you have to rely on 7 other people (or at least 5 of them), doing their part at least modestly well too for the win to happen. And these are the people, who likely are ready to join your groups...even w/o the clear achievement.