Myth Message being used to excluded players

[Snugglebutt]

Their party, their rules. You don't like the rules? Don't join the party, and don't demand that they change their rules for you. They can set the rules to whatever they want, as strict as they want or even as silly as they want, It is their choice and they are using PF for what it was designed for!

Party Finder was implemented to help you find players to fit your requirements.

No party in PF that fits your personal requirements? Make your own instead of complaining that others who are, are asking for other requirements.

Just because someone can do something does not always mean they should. People will abuse and misuse anything if they can and in this case that is what has happened to it. The idea and principle behind the introduction of the soldiery bonus was intended to be a good thing but people have taken one part of this feature namely the start of run notification and turned it into something harmful and bad for the people it was put in to help.

Either way I am sure my case for the removal of the notification at the start of a trial, raid and dungeon has been made in a sufficient manner for getting it removed already. The argument for it's removal due to not only it's misuse in PF listed which narrow minded people keep focusing on and trying to argue with me about but also its abuse in other areas of the game from fishing for soldiery bonus only runs to using it in a way opposite to it's intended purpose, hurting the new players it was designed to help. As such I do not think will be around for too long in which case this issue will be resolved soon enough. No-one here has given a good enough excuse to keep it just so that they can keep misusing and abusing it as opposed to removing it which resolves such misuse and abuse.

It's removal stops people from using/abusing the bonus notification at a start of a run to ditch groups which ask for vote kick, force a vote kick/abandon via disconnecting for few minutes or wiping the group on purpose in order to get kicked so can continue fishing for bonus only runs after left that group in the lurch...which is something SE already agree fishing in dungeon runs and such is something they want to stop hence the 30 minute penalty attempt to stop it before. The notification is being used to decide whether to ditch runs right at the start because of the notification popping up before the run has began instead of just at the end of which if was just at the end they would have to do the run before find out if was bonus soldiery, they would be forced to only judge people on their ability and competence during that run if only shown at the end and they would have to try to complete a run to see if they get rewarded with the bonus which is how it should be because that way people could not misuse/abuse it.

It's removal at start of a run will also stop people misusing it in PF listings when both the credibility and validity of using that notification as a way of judging competence or ability has been on multiple occasions is shown to not only be inaccurate and naive but also on top of that people are misusing it and using it to do the opposite of why it was implemented...even if this notification was removed from the game it would not be detrimental to groups in PF as nothing stops them for asking for cleared only people, item linked people or achievement linked people. They will still be able to kick people who lied about that only they will be kicking them for the right reasons like if they fail and are proven to be incompetent just like they do if someone who links achievement/item or has clear is shown to be incompetent.

It was added to help new players, to assist them and convince people to help them but far too many people are doing the opposite and using it to target and harm new players, it is not working as intended and like all things not working as intended it should be fixed. So keep hating on me all you want but I am quite sure SE are smart enough and wise enough to see the removal of the initial pop up notification at the start of runs will do more good than harm and I am sure it will be removed sooner rather than later because of this.

[Sapphic]

Just because someone can do something does not always mean they should. People will abuse and misuse anything if they can and in this case that is what has happened to it. The idea and principle behind the introduction of the soldiery bonus was intended to be a good thing but people have taken one part of this feature namely the start of run notification and turned it into something harmful and bad for the people is was put in to help.

Putting requirements for a certain type of player in PF parties is not a misuse of the system. Kicking someone out after stating you want a certain criteria and finding out they do not fill it is not misuse of the system. If someone is looking for a healer for PF, would you join as a BRD? Same thing applies to those asking for players with previous clears.

If someone joins a PF party that requires clears and they don't have a clear, they lied and why won't they expect a kick? If they PMd the PF leader and explained the situation, IF they can clear to 1% and the party accepts that, then fine. If all these who say they can clear to about 1% and the wipe is "always someone else" if they are as good as they try to project then they would not need to lie to get into parties.

All these players claiming they can get the boss to 1%, last person standing, never make mistakes, always the other players, all those parties have one thing in common. The person making those claims.

Hard truth is too many players want to hide the fact they do not know the fight, whether with outright lies or if they changed it to hiding the bonus for new players because they just want to be carried to an easy win witht he feeling of self entitlement that they can join any farm party they deisre and leech.

[Snugglebutt]

Putting requirements for a certain type of player in PF parties is not a misuse of the system. Kicking someone out after stating you want a certain criteria and finding out they do not fill it is not misuse of the system. If someone is looking for a healer for PF, would you join as a BRD? Same thing applies to those asking for players with previous clears.

It is not a misuse of the PF system, the PF system is designed to filter groups, the PF system is working as intended and I never once said the PF system was being misused or abused. I said it is a misuse and abuse of the 'soldiery notification' both within the PF system and outside of it, the notification is not working as intended as the soldiery notification was not designed to be used in that way...people are exploiting the lack of foresight by SE when introduced this notification which was a means to help new players but some people turning it instead against new players. The whole thread is about the misuse and abuse of the 'soldiery notification' at the start of raids, trials and dungeons.

[Sapphic]

It is not a misuse of the PF system, the PF system is designed to filter groups and I never once said the PF system was being misused or abused. I said it is a misuse of the 'soldiery notification' both within the PF system and outside of it, the soldiery notification was not designed to be used in that way. The whole thread is about the misuse and abuse of the 'soldiery notification' at the start of raids, trials and dungeons.

Most players do not state they are new, more often than not you only know their is a player new to a duty because of that message. Using the soldiery notification is a necessary evil because those without clears or even no experience of the fight still think they are able to join any PF party they want to, irregardless of the posted requirements to join.

No notification? Players without clears can lie their way into a clear party and potentially waste everyone elses time. Keeping the notification prevents that. IF people didn't lie their way in, it wouldn't be needed. But they do, so it is.

Taking it to the DF, if a bonus sold pops up I know someone is new and can explain strats, if no message pops then no one is and can just start the run. Without that message I wouldn't know as in most cases hardly anyone states it is their first time.

[Snugglebutt]

Most players do not state they are new, more often than not you only know their is a player new to a duty because of that message. Using the soldiery notification is a necessary evil because those without clears or even no experience of the fight still think they are able to join any PF party they want to, irregardless of the posted requirements to join.

No notification? Players without clears can lie their way into a clear party and potentially waste everyone elses time. Keeping the notification prevents that. IF people didn't lie their way in, it wouldn't be needed. But they do, so it is.

Necessary evil? What a load of bullshit, the is no way in hell that it is 'necessary' in any sense of that word. You are no worse off without it as you was before that pop up notification was introduced and people started misusing it. It is not needed at all, whether someone is new, someone has clears or someone has the link for achievement or item they all often can cause wipes and fails regardless of which category they fall into. Just like before if they fail you have the ability to kick someone hence why people say kill/fail=kick in PF. You have given no good reason as to why it should remain as it is and continue being abused and misused. You also continue just like every narrow minded and naive person who focuses only on the PF aspect to take into account that is just one reason out of many as to why it should be removed.

Taking it to the DF, if a bonus sold pops up I know someone is new and can explain strats, if no message pops then no one is and can just start the run. Without that message I wouldn't know as in most cases hardly anyone states it is their first time.

It would not have a negative effect if was removed and your really grasping for straws using that excuse. People can and do often tell someone they are new and when they don't if they die or do something wrong you advise them how to do it right just like people have always done. Only with it gone you will not have people fishing for soldiery bonus only runs and you will not have it being used as an excuse to ditch and abandon groups so those people can continue fishing. Losing that heads up notification at start of a run which people are using to decide whether they want to continue trying to run it normally or whether they ditch and fish for another would merely stop the abuse of it which hurts everyone else in the group who are actually there for the right reason which is progression or trying to get a clear.

[Sapphic]

People can and do often tell someone they are new and when they don't if they die or do something wrong you advise them how to do it right just like people have always done.

If you read the OP again, it is about players kicking those who cause the bonus to pop up at the start, then it sidetracked to another that puts up clear only parties in the PF and rightfully kicking those who lied when they entered the party when the bonus message pops up.

Having the message pop up is one deterrent to players joining clear parties without fitting the PF creators requirements, aka lieing.

I only used the PF at the beginning, I do things in FC instead due to the number of players joining "clear parties" that had zero clue what they were doing. I remember one that before the message was shown, created a clear party for Titan HM, I was going for my 4th or 5th relic on PLD. 3-4 tries, one player kept dieing to the first WotL. so we abandoned, I asked if the SCH knew the fight, response I got was "No, I was hoping you would teach me". Didnt ask before joining, didn't say anything while queing, and only stated that after being asked after abandoning the duty. All he gained from that was being kicked and blacklisted for lieing.

I would never join a farm party if I hadn't succesfully cleared it enough to call it on farm status.

You accuse me of grasping at straws when you change the OPs post from new players being kicked to other players fishing for it! Something I have never seen.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

This has gotten way too off track, and even I am to blame.

Main fact here is, if you use the bonus message purely as a means to quit, kick, or judge other players, you are wrong. Now, if you set PF criteria looking for experienced clears or any other requirements (extreme or not) and someone not meeting said criteria joins, yes, you are within your rights to kick them out.

Now, if you use the bonus message as a means to judge skill, again, you are wrong. Circumstances are rarely so black and white. And there are too many possibilities why to even note.

Still, the bonus message means nothing more than someone has yet to clear it, and an incentive has been provided to help them. Don't forget, plenty of times before. . . That was you.

[Ellatrix]

I would not be surprised if you yourself had been carried all the way up onto that pedestal you so proudly look down on others from.

Just wanted to pull this out. I currently have the only Dreadwyrm weapon on the server that I play on. I totally got carried.

Main fact here is, if you use the bonus message purely as a means to quit, kick, or judge other players, you are wrong. Now, if you set PF criteria looking for experienced clears or any other requirements (extreme or not) and someone not meeting said criteria joins, yes, you are within your rights to kick them out.

Now, if you use the bonus message as a means to judge skill, again, you are wrong. Circumstances are rarely so black and white. And there are too many possibilities why to even note.

Still, the bonus message means nothing more than someone has yet to clear it, and an incentive has been provided to help them. Don't forget, plenty of times before. . . That was you.

Why is so hard to understand that putting "no 100 bonus" in PF is synonymous with "previous clears only", which you seem fine with? And why is it that the players who don't do content where previous experience is incredibly important for a farm keep arguing that... it isn't? You're in an FC of soldiery superheros; you've seemingly not challenged content that requires a substantial time investment to learn.

[Brill_]

Why is so hard to understand that putting "no 100 bonus" in PF is synonymous with "previous clears only", which you seem fine with? And why is it that the players who don't do content where previous experience is incredibly important for a farm keep arguing that... it isn't? You're in an FC of soldiery superheros; you've seemingly not challenged content that requires a substantial time investment to learn.

Why can't you understand that previous does not equal skilled? Which is what people have been arguing in this thread. If you want skilled people for farming, fine. But assessing the skill of a player based on them having the bonus message or not is the worst way to do that.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Why is so hard to understand that putting "no 100 bonus" in PF is synonymous with "previous clears only", which you seem fine with? And why is it that the players who don't do content where previous experience is incredibly important for a farm keep arguing that... it isn't? You're in an FC of soldiery superheros; you've seemingly not challenged content that requires a substantial time investment to learn.

I am not disagreeing with the fact that yes, it essentially means the same thing. I DO disagree with the fact that "previous experience is necessary for a farm" PURELY because I myself have shattered that idea. Many times. Did I lie about not having cleared it? No. I was upfront about it, knew my stuff, and while it may seem almost crazy to think, the rest of the party took a chance trusting me to know what to do and do my part. And we were all rewarded. Let's be fair though, it is generally accepted and understood that if you're joining a farm party, you've cleared the content.

You had a bad experience once. Maybe more than once. So have many of us. I farmed T5 5 times in one night with a great party I gathered in the PF (no threatening messages or "no bonus message" comments) before someone experienced came along and ruined it by performing poorly, possibly intentionally. Was I upset? Yes. Did it stop me? No. Has it driven me to set unnecessarily high requirements for kill/farm parties? No. Not ever. Fact is, if you can hang, and do what needs to be done, you're welcome with me, clear or no. Why? Cause there's plenty of things I CAN clear, I just haven't. Lack of interest, lack of a good party, or even just lack of trying. What makes me so different than others?

As for my FC, they are mostly casual players I've known for many years and I am quite close with, EVEN if we have different goals or ways we enjoy the game.When they were grinding out Animus/Novus content, I was joining every T5 group I could. Learning and pushing myself to reach the top. Teaching every other person I could find who was interested in doing so. At the time, they simply weren't interested (and inversely, I wasn't interested in Relic content.) When they were solely focused on Hunts and gearing up, I was getting my first T6/T7 clears, with a static I ultimately had to leave due to work schedules. A static that not long after that collectively left my server. Does it bother me sometimes? Yes. Does it stop me? No. Fact is, I've seen/done/tried too much to see things so black and white. I've seen farm parties full of experience fail hard, and learning parties full of "bonuses" if you will, come together and get the win. I've failed as much as I've succeeded, and bonus messages or previous clears have rarely been the reason why.