Coil 5 changes needed

[Snugglebutt]

Ok, I'm in a static, and cleared T5 before this, so I honestly don't know what it looks like/what the rules are. Regardless, in addition to what I said before, the kind of coordination necessary to clear those turns is not suited for DF. Even PF is a bit of a stretch. It can be a lot of hard work, even after 2.4. Making a static is difficult, but what you could do is start an LS with players who join a PF that meet your criteria (nice but skilled, determined but needs practice, etc). Putting it in regular DF wouldn't really accomplish much, simply because of the coordination and skill necessary.

Whether or not someone can clear it using DF is not the point but even so second coil I believe can be done with DF just like EX's and T5 can be. I have gone into great detail about the fallacies surrounding PF groups of late and the requirements they put on the listings so I won't do it again however this assumption that DF groups cannot clear content is also something that needs to be stopped as it is not true. It is harder sure because your opening up to a lot more people to join your group so finding people who can do it is like drop in pond from PF to drop in a lake in DF...but to say a DF group cannot clear content like 2nd coil is wrong. The same thing was once said about EX trials, ST/CT and the original coils 1-5 when they got added and opened up to DF but all of these often get cleared using DF and not just PF.

Watching a video on it multiple times or reading guides too multiple times is enough for most people to become skilled enough to clear it and additional information like deciding who's going to kite or handle x, y or z is easily decided at the start of the run. Personally I would use the DF version to train and to teach others, help others plus while doing it you will run it with vastly more people than a PF group will ever have, people who you can gauge their ability to progress and whether or not get along with them. Not forgetting you will also have people who were no longer part of statics who might also be using DF despite having cleared the content prior. People you come across during DF runs could then become part of a linkshell or friendslist which can go to and make statics or help with PF''s too. There is no major downside to opening up 2nd coil to DF, it is just an optional and additional way for people to run content on top of PF and statics.

So the main point is people would like to use it as another option of which to enter and take part in content, whether to just learn or to complete content and there is no reason why it should remain locked with a pre-made requirement anymore now that is old content. Those who want to continue using PF's or Statics would not be stopped from doing so just because another method opened up to those who do not want to use PF or have enough time or friends to make a static. Noone should be against removing that requirement at this stage, noone has a good enough reason not to allow for DF to be used to gather and form parties for 2nd coil anymore now that final coil is out because it does not stop anyone using the previous methods for doing it if that is their preference.

[Clavaat]

-snip-

I think the problem here is, PF you have the option of letting everyone know, "Hey this is a learning party, please be patient," or "This is a clear party, know what you're doing." Putting raid content in the DF can cause issues with people who have different goals, as has been seen before in Story Roulette and such. I'm not saying it should never be in regular DF, but for the time being, I think it makes sense to stay where it is at.

Honestly, I pretty much agree with you, but I think the big picture here is to know that people play with different goals in mind, and PF can differentiate that, while DF cannot, and I think that's a big reason why they haven't completely opened it up.

[Seoki]

Downing t5 is not something that everyone is entitled to.

It's a indication of what YOU as a player are capable of doing. If you cannot down t5 do not loathe about not being able to down it and demand change. Take matters into your own hands.

My 3 man premade was in the same boat you were until the past Saturday. We said enough was enough and made use of the server my SCH had and made a mumble (you can do raidcall as an alternative as it is far easier to set up) Set up a PF and made it a requirement to join our mumble and made sure to note it was a LEARNING PARTY (it could be downed if we learned) If you come up with the argument that it takes to long to do this through PF then you do not have the patience to learn the new turns and you do not deserve to down it. If you can't muster the patience required to gather a party then how do you honestly expect to get to new content? It's baffling to me that people honestly want this END GAME CONTENT to be dumbed down.

Take the time needed to get a group together (however long that may be) make sure that you have some sort of voice comm (if you're on ps4 you can still join via applications on the app stores) and take the time required to down this.

It was not designed to be a cakewalk and it never will be. I understand the frustrations with players who refuse to listen, but that can be dealt with my steps.

Who knows you might even make a new friend and begin to create a static.

[Vhailor]

For some reason you think the difficulty of the fight and gathering the players are not related. The more difficult the fight the harder it's going to be to gather players that can beat it.

This is a multiplayer game and in a multiplayer game is the performance of the whole team that matters and not just your performance and no it is not horrible, horrible design. It's exactly how a multiplayer game should work.

Let me recommend single player games for you then, so you don't have to deal with teammates.

This has nothing to do with multiplayer games vs. single player titles. This has everything to do with the margin of error afforded - the margin of error that others can pick up on their own.

I'll put it this way; if I'm playing a team-based FPS and one of my teammates sucks, it doesn't mean that I lose every round. If I'm in an end-game alliance in FFXI and a person or two is derpish, we can still pull off victory in the vast majority of cases. FFXIV is the only multiplayer title that I've ever played featuring such all-or-nothing content - either everyone is decent-to-good, or everyone loses. That is, I repeat, horrible, horrible game design.

In fact, in direct response to you, Edli - in the current system, the team's performance doesn't matter in the slightest. What matters in most groups is solely the performance of the one person who makes the first mistake. The team overall can be playing at a very high level, but one person who slips up generally causes a wipe anyway.

Anyway, TL;DR - assuming that XIV's uniquely harsh end-game design is the only way (or even a good way) to implement team-based gameplay is absolutely laughable. Your comments were not remotely constructive, nor were they particularly valid from a rational standpoint.

2 things.

first, you make it seam like anyone that can routinely do 8man content in a static doesn't have a life. I have a full time job that often requires extra hours after close of business and I already work 40hrs a week. I have a 7 year old, and I am married. I have an active social life. I get to enjoy this game as much as anybody else. You need to adjust your expectations. I know that I will never be able to form a static at present. My solution is to wait for coil content lockout to be removed before I try it. Sure, ill get to start on FCOB 3 months after all the 'no lifers' get to, but who cares? Ill get it done eventually.

second... 16 people in Turn 5 is such a bad idea I can't believe people are actually entertaining it as a solution. If you even think it would be a good idea... idk... too much lol

It's not an issue of three months; we're talking about T5 being a barrier still for many. My underlying point is that, if you lack a static party, end-game content is rather unpleasant at the moment for most people. This is largely due to the fact that PF and DF are unreliable, require lots of time, frequently result in hostilities or drama between party members, and certainly make for a stressful experience rather than a fun one (for me, at least; and I suspect this holds true for most others using them). That's not to say doing end-game content without a static is impossible - it's not. It's to say that doing is a fairly miserable experience, with sources of difficulty and stress coming more from finding a working party than the content itself. That's a problem, in my eyes - a serious one.

Also, considering you are not a member of a static by your own admission, I think you reinforced my point that most people who can routinely do 8-man content in statics don't have lives. Just saying.

Finally, my comment about 16-player sizes would clearly necessitate a redesign of fight mechanics to account for the extra bodies. I didn't mention this explicitly because it would become completely obvious were this course ever pursued.

[Snugglebutt]

I think the problem here is, PF you have the option of letting everyone know, "Hey this is a learning party, please be patient," or "This is a clear party, know what you're doing." Putting raid content in the DF can cause issues with people who have different goals, as has been seen before in Story Roulette and such. I'm not saying it should never be in regular DF, but for the time being, I think it makes sense to stay where it is at.

Honestly, I pretty much agree with you, but I think the big picture here is to know that people play with different goals in mind, and PF can differentiate that, while DF cannot, and I think that's a big reason why they haven't completely opened it up.

But if going by that principle in your first paragraph then surely you would be advocating Ex primal's, coils 1-5 and ST should remain out of and be removed from DF or have restrictions put back in place so can only run with full pre-mades. As on every single one you do not know if people are training to complete it or have completed it but does not stop people from completing it even without knowing that quite often.

To be honest if I was looking to make a static I would use DF runs to find people I felt was competent enough to be part of it, your essentially putting more people to the test at once, seeing their capabilities and seeing if get along with them rather than trying out individuals one by one in a PF so in that sense opening up DF without restrictions on 2nd coil would benefit statics bit like how talent scouts go around watching matches to see if anyone they spot is good within a large group of many who might not be so.

As mentioned even with the issue of not knowing whether people using it to train or going for pure kill/clear the same could be said for every single dungeon, raid or trial currently in DF plus the ones I listed above. Sure you don't know if people are using it to get better or if they are good enough to clear it but the same applies for people in PF when first try them out in your group, a item link or achievement etc are not good indicators of a persons ability much like people claiming to know the basics but still have to prove competence in themselves...including people who only cleared because was carried or paid for clear are all still present in PF so are not good indications of their actual ability.

Remember for the most part people who train are training to complete it, their end goal is the same as others in that they do want to down it so it will end in clear if everyone is good enough, but DF is not ideal for farming as once it ends the (non-premade) party disbands so you would still use PF for farming and DF for training to clear or for clearing itself if trained enough...as such there is only one goal regardless of if you want to train or to clear, both will be going for the kill so both groups will be trying to achieve the same thing.

[Clavaat]

Also, considering you are not a member of a static by your own admission, I think you reinforced my point that most people who can routinely do 8-man content in statics don't have lives. Just saying.

Do you ever have a Poker Night? Board Game Night? Sports Practice Night? Why not a Raid Night? It's not unreasonable at all to think that people can play on somewhat of a schedule.

And anyway, this isn't bad design, no matter how much you try to say that it is. There is content out there that gets easier and easier, or is just meant for the general public. Should there be more options for endgame? Sure, why not. But it really isn't that hard anymore, with the amount of Echo and overgear making DPS checks and even most high damage abilities irrelevant, there is really not much to the fight anymore compared to others. Most of the mechanics require minimal movement if you set up properly. If you are having a miserable experience, play the social game. Make friends, keep people around in LS/FC who were nice/helpful.

[Clavaat]

-snip-

I said I don't think it should never be part of the regular DF, but it is still too difficult and/or controversial to be a part of it right now. I'm really confused as to what you mean when you say you use DF to find people. What if you find someone you like, and they aren't on your server? You are immediately slowing down your progress into forming a static simply because you could go many runs without ever seeing anyone on your server. You can use PF for the exact same purpose as what you are saying, but without the server limitation. The beauty of PF is that you set the requirements. If they join, and don't meet them, you let them go.

[Itseotle]

Wait you see T6-7 hehe..

Let be serious, T6-7 in PF is only good to spiridbound your gear... Because on first wipe on the actual boss, someone will rage and quit.

Work as intended. (Seriously DEV, Remove the trash, or put a Shortcut, if player want to spiritbound they can...)

SPirit bonding is much faster in the new expert dungeons anyways, by a lot.

[Snugglebutt]

I said I don't think it should never be part of the regular DF, but it is still too difficult and/or controversial to be a part of it right now. I'm really confused as to what you mean when you say you use DF to find people. What if you find someone you like, and they aren't on your server? You are immediately slowing down your progress into forming a static simply because you could go many runs without ever seeing anyone on your server. You can use PF for the exact same purpose as what you are saying, but without the server limitation. The beauty of PF is that you set the requirements. If they join, and don't meet them, you let them go.

It's easy enough to ask someone who looks good what server they are on and if willing to switch servers in some cases if come across someone really good and they can always say no or inform you they on different server, takes a few seconds to find out.

As for being difficult and controversial right now, its no more difficult than when people first tried to do ST or coils 1-5 in DF in that it was a new set of bosses with new sets of mechanics to learn but people still managed to clear it doing so and as such I do not think a person claiming it is hard for them is adequate an excuse to prevent others from trying to do it. With regards to controversy...the only controversy is people from statics for some odd reason or those blinded by their own ego who do not want others to try a different approach to themselves on old content they have probably already passed.

It does no-one any harm at all to open it up to DF with the restriction removed now that final coil is out, their egos can remain intact knowing they are on their endgame content final coil turns with PF or statics while those on 2nd coil are trying to get passed old content via DF. If people want to try it using DF they may or may not clear it but they would at least have a new way of finding out, those who prefer the old way are not stopped from continuing to use PF and statics.

[Clavaat]

It's easy enough to ask someone who looks good what server they are on and if willing to switch servers in some cases if come across someone really good and they can always say no or inform you they on different server, takes a few seconds to find out.

As for being difficult and controversial right now, its no more difficult than when people first tried to do ST or coils 1-5 in DF in that it was a new set of bosses with new sets of mechanics to learn but people still managed to clear it doing so and as such I do not think a person claiming it is hard for them is adequate an excuse to prevent others from trying to do it.

I'll agree to disagree. On pretty much all of that. Like I said, I generally agree with you on opening it up, however I think you're underestimating this a bit. Best of luck.