DRG has been broken for far too long. Fix it SE

[xnonamex]

You conflate an under 2.5 second skill into a 3 and turn that into 9 and IM bad at math?

Umm... this just shows how bad you are or your rotation is. One missed HT or ID costs a lot. It is just not apply it later. Type of thing. Because an optimal DRG rotations is highly fixed (esp if comparing to other melee classes) since there are quite a lot of timers that need to be managed:
HT, DIS, CHAOS, PHENO, BFB, IR, LS, PS (did i forget any?) so that's 8 timers that need to be aligned to get the max out of the class. Meaning that missing one will result in other timers falling off in the wrong time which results in either replying them in wrong times where you could do some other deeps moves (and in this case our deeps move that makes sense is 3 combo T which takes 7.5 seconds in total to make sense in using it so it also needs to be aligned since PHENO, HT, CHAOS combo will ruin it) or forgetting about them (which would cause you to loose waay more deeps). So if you are saying that you can just try again, means that you are doing that and loosing that deeps and not even realizing it.

I'm not saying DRG is terrible class. I still like to play it and i don't even mind missing stuff once in a while and loosing some deeps on it because as you said - eventually you can learn it some fights how to mitigate that and I don't mind the punishment since as you said everyone has that (let's not go into how mild or severe it is). The bottom line is that MNK and NIN do more deeps ( i think we can all agree to this) and bring more utility (and this).

[Eidolon]

HT, DIS, CHAOS, PHENO, BFB, IR, LS, PS (did i forget any?) so that's 8 timers that need to be aligned to get the max out of the class.[...]So if you are saying that you can just try again, means that you are doing that and loosing that deeps and not even realizing it.

Basically, this is probably one of the worst parts about it. A monk's missed positional is exactly that - a missed positional, and an immediate short-term, minor potency loss. However, a Dragon's miss will delay an entire cycle. At the start of the fight, as Aana suggested, it's not that major - if you miss your first Heavy Thrust, well, go ahead and do it again - it's a very minor loss at that point. ]


However, once Dragoon is in its stride, it needs to maintain perfection of a rotation or else skills will fall off. Ever have a Heavy Thrust run out before using your Full Thrust / Blood for Blooded / Life Surged? It sucks, but unfortunately, you miscalculated the time you had left on Heavy Thrust because the boss had a jump (T9 dalamud) / you missed your heavy thrust 1-2 times (Boss is spinning like a top) / you had to dodge. This doesn't even touch on, as he said, DoT management.

The only real thing I found wierd is the mention of Blood for Blood. Is there really an optimal time to use it mid-rotation? I've never thought about it before, but of all the Dragoon GCD skills, you basically can run Blood for Blood up for 80% of them (At least with my cycle, I tend to.)... So as long as you don't pop it at a Heavy Thrust that's going to lead into an Impulse Drive, it should be up for all your other bread and butter skills.

[xnonamex]

The only real thing I found wierd is the mention of Blood for Blood. Is there really an optimal time to use it mid-rotation? I've never thought about it before, but of all the Dragoon GCD skills, you basically can run Blood for Blood up for 80% of them (At least with my cycle, I tend to.)... So as long as you don't pop it at a Heavy Thrust that's going to lead into an Impulse Drive, it should be up for all your other bread and butter skills.

Yeah. Ofc you pop it after HT.
Well in my rotation BFB cooldown is highly aligned to the rest of the rotation, meaning that the BFB comes off GCD at the exact moment when I need to use it. Any delays in between either results in not 100% uptime of BFB since you need to "wait" for the sweetspot or similar. But in general i was just trying to make a point of how fixed the rotation is

Also I sometimes find myself wasting some time because I actually rely on skills working as i want, to speed up the process and smashing on the button for off-gcd before the animations and stuff are done for the previous skill so that i get that small buffer time that you can steal in (esp if you have high-delay situation as i tend to have) if you do that just to realize that the HT didn't apply cuz the boss decided to turn and your BFB went up. but that is of course my mistake and luckily it doesn't happen too often

[Aana]

Such as this:

which strikes me as somewhat disingenuous.

There is no mechanic in this game that prevents flank/rear unless it locks you in place (eg bind in T8), forces a specific movement (eg shriek in T7), or stops you all together (gaols/conflags etc). As for T11, most strats I see have tanks teathered in front obviously, and, lets say tanks are north or 12 oclock, other 2 groups on the flank/rear split around 8 and 4. That places non-tanks essentically on the line of flank/rear which is the exact place mnks and drgs want to be. If your group is forcing you to stand off to the side 90 degrees at 3 or 6 and never move then work with your group. Its doable.

Umm... this just shows how bad you are or your rotation is. One missed HT or ID costs a lot. It is just not apply it later. Type of thing. Because an optimal DRG rotations is highly fixed (esp if comparing to other melee classes) since there are quite a lot of timers that need to be managed:
HT, DIS, CHAOS, PHENO, BFB, IR, LS, PS (did i forget any?) so that's 8 timers that need to be aligned to get the max out of the class.....(etc)

A drg rotation is essentially broken into 3, 20 second blocks before repeating. Each 20 second block is 8 moves. If done perfectly HT is on when you actually re-use HT, Dis is still up when you acutally use your next Dis, you clip CT by 1 GCD all because we stopped using fracture when drg got buffed way back when. This means if you miss HT 1 time, you will only delay by <2.5 sec meaning that the worst thing that happens is HT falls off right before you do your new HT, but is still on for everything else. Same with Dis. 1 whiff actually prevents the 1 tic CT clip. The worst thing that happens is a single GCD (the reapplication of HT or DIS) will not have the effect on the actual HT or DIS, but it will be up for everything else. Unless you miss 2+ in which case it falls off 1 GCD earlier for each whiff and then might start to fall off on your TT or whatever. Again the avg pot per GCD is about 260. Whif=100. with possible loss of either Dis or HT on the next Dis or HT. If its HT you loose 20% of 170. 17. if its Dis you loose 11.11111% of 220. ~25. 260-100+17+25=202. I stand corrected. it isnt under 200 its basically is 200 (unless its the opening one where you have no buffs up in which case its closer to 180). Again, more numbers less 'feeling' about how much it hurts you. You dont like what i say? Provide a better calculation. Dont just blindly parrot "buffs fall off and thats a lot of damage you loose". SHOW me how much damage you loose.

As for the offensive buffs, they get used on cooldown 99% of the time unless you save for a specific burn phase (or not using it during a phase like B4B during AOE damage), or its the opening salvo. Beyond those 2 singular exceptions you should hit them on CD. Whiffing a HT mid fight has zero correlation with holding buffs. Messing up with buffs up always sucks. Ever bunny a kassatsu raiton with B4B up? Man that feels horrible. Just wasted your best CDs for nothing and delayed your GCDs performing it.

I'm not saying DRG is terrible class. I still like to play it and i don't even mind missing stuff once in a while and loosing some deeps on it because as you said - eventually you can learn it some fights how to mitigate that and I don't mind the punishment since as you said everyone has that (let's not go into how mild or severe it is). The bottom line is that MNK and NIN do more deeps ( i think we can all agree to this) and bring more utility (and this).

Again, ill reiterate my stance that the complaint is lack of deeps and/or lack of utility. Im not opposed to a buff to address these issues. I AM opposed to positional easing because (as shown above) it doesnt drastically ramp up drg ST damage, and we all agree it doesnt do squat for utility. 5 Positionals a min are the the only thing drg has regarding gameplay mechanics that take any thought at all and i dont want to see it dumbed down when the removal does NOT address the actual gripes with drg.

Again: Show that positionals easing dramatically buffs Drg ST damage enough to 'fix' it (numbers Prz. Not rhetoric), or that they help utility. Otherwise There is no rational argument that easing positionals addresses the actual gripes about drg. Its just easier for the sake of easier without addressing the problems people have with drg. Everyone has already stated plainly that drg doesnt even do enough dummy damage when you DONT mess up positionals. There is a logical whiff connecting "Drg doesnt do enough damage on dummies when landing positionals vs mnk/nin" to "Drg needs easier positionals because its damage sucks to keep up with mnk/nin". It makes no sense. Buff utility /thunbs up. Buff damage /sure i guess. Nerf positionals..../wtf?

[Sleigh]

There is no mechanic in this game that prevents flank/rear unless it locks you in place (eg bind in T8), forces a specific movement (eg shriek in T7), or stops you all together (gaols/conflags etc). As for T11, most strats I see have tanks teathered in front obviously, and, lets say tanks are north or 12 oclock, other 2 groups on the flank/rear split around 8 and 4. That places non-tanks essentically on the line of flank/rear which is the exact place mnks and drgs want to be. If your group is forcing you to stand off to the side 90 degrees at 3 or 6 and never move then work with your group. Its doable.

In T11 when you get tethered you have to stand 180 degrees from the other tether set, and to make dodging easier it's pretty common to stack even if not tethered so the first aimed Nerve is on a tether group for sure. It's not as simple as position tanks here, melee there. Also, Nerve Gas, you have to take what you can get as you try to survive and not run into the other group. Also, you can't take any liberties at all when you're tethered, no stealing positionals when you can or you will kill you and your partner.

The worst thing that happens is a single GCD (the reapplication of HT or DIS) will not have the effect on the actual HT or DIS, but it will be up for everything else.

The problem isn't missing one GCD. It's missing 2+, which is actually pretty common when a mechanic forces you to miss a positional (T8, T9, T10, T11, most of the specific mechanics that force you to go to specific spots require you there for more than 3 seconds, especially T11. If it was just one GCD every time, you're right, it wouldn't be as bad as we're saying ... but it is). That's when it goes into terrible territory, when you're skipping CT for a whole rotation or doing an unbuffed FT combo.

Is it so unreasonable to ask to be screwed over equally with the only other two classes of its kind in the same position? The potency loss alone is enough. As long as SE makes mechanics based on your character moving in/out of a mechanic while still expected to attack the boss, this will always be something against DRG whereas MNK/NIN get a slap on the wrist. In fact, if they buff DRG to near MNK/NIN levels via more DPS and MDEF, the positional requirement could in fact STILL deter DRG from being brought to now and future fights.