DRG has been broken for far too long. Fix it SE

[Sleigh]

Tested it with WAR without defiance, and over the long haul PLD pushes ahead, equally geared. PLD does have the singularly best damage buff in game, Berserk does not compare. PLD v MRD? different game XD

From my limited testing: PLD in Sword Oath with Slashing debuff applied > no Defiance WAR = Sword Oath PLD > Defiance WAR >> Shield Oath PLD

[beowulf81]

Well RNG does affect everyone but no it is not equally.There are regular mistakes/mishaps that come from miscalculations or the victim of RNG, like missing a BLM/SMN cast because you had to dodge (sometimes a mistake, sometimes just has to happen), or MNK missing a positional. They can happen a few times a fight, usually not too big a deal in reality. Then there are the catastrophic mistakes/mishaps from miscalculations/RNG, like losing GL3 when you didn't have to, or losing AH3/UI3 accidentally somehow, or going OoM with SMN. These things shouldn't happen unless they're SUPPOSED to happen, like losing GL3 to a phase change. The thing is, DRG missing a positional is closer to this category than the former.

That's the problem. No one is punished so harshly for a regular mistake/situation, even a missed cast from BLM is just a missed cast, go on your way. DRG loses out on the combo/buff, takes a potency loss, and heaven help you if you are in such a mechanic that doesn't let you get to your positional for more than 5s (as we have said multiple times does happen in the new coil ... which you don't seem to care about).

Regardless, this whole positioning thing is part of the problem, not the problem. MDEF (YES this is a thing right now ... we've had our DRG die in every single turn when others would have survived while progressing, and T13 is gonna be especially punishing now that we're working on it with a DRG), lower total DPS, no utility (MNK 20% Mantra, INT debuff Dragon Kick. NIN Goad, ability to let Storm's Path stay up 100% of the time without major tank aggro/DPS loss), they're the issues. The positional thing is just icing on the cake of why they're not ideal.

So DRG's less survivable, less DPS in turns it can play optimally and way less on ones it has to miss positionals, and has no importance to the raid. The overwhelming majority thinks it needs some help. You for some reason deny this with all your first half of T10 experience in all your glory and say we're wrong because we need to L2P. Cool.

This, so much this. Took everything i wanted to say right out of my mouth and said it in a way that actually makes sense. My thanks, good sir.

[Aana]

yes, well done, rng affects everyone. And rng causes mistakes, i.e. missed positionals, which skill alone cannot prevent (and its good to see that you have accepted this, despite your earlier assertions to the contrary); which is when you see the cost of the mistake, and find out whether or not its recoverable, and moreover, is the potential gain of the class worth the cost of the mistake?

1st off, no. Being bound in T8 preventing HT does not force a 'mistake'. Getting gaoled and loosing GL is not a 'mistake'. Mistake implies human error. All my RNG examples are not human errors and are esentially unavoidable. If you could compensate for them then they would fall under 'l2p' instead of RNG 'deal with it'.

And if you cannot hit impulse drive from rear, you are deprived of an entire combo. you are deprived of your highest potency move. you are deprived of your -10% piercing resistance.

You are not 'deprived' of a combo. Missing 1 GCD of ID does not somehow equate to a loss of the 900 pot combo as it is commonly suggested in this thread. Whiffing a move is only a DELAY of 2.5sec, not some mass destruction of a 900 pot 3 move combo. It is only the opportunity cost of your normal rotation avg pot per GCD - the 100 pot of a failed ID or HT. It is far less dramatic than many believe. I forget the #s exactly off the top of my head but avg pot/gcd for drg is like 260ish iirc. So a whiffed ID or HT is really 260-100. 160 pot loss per whiff give or take and of course other factors. If you whiff during B4B its worse than whiffing with no buffs etc. Nuances aside you have a chance to flub under 200 pot 5x a minute. Now were falling into mnk and blm territory. Funny how that works. It really is in the same ballpark of other jobs for potential losses. 5x/min chance to loose <200 pot. But you wont mis ALL of them unless youre horrible. so in most scenarios were talking a few hundred total pot a min really at risk here. Every GCD miss positioned on mnk is 40-50 pot lost. If a mnk misses 3-4x a min thats the same as drg missing 1/5 (1 per minute). Thats pretty darn reasonable in my book as far as parody goes.

The VAST majority of instances you whiff can be avoided and thus chalked up to human error. The few remaining like bound in T8 for a few seconds is just dealing with fight mechanics. People are gonna do less DPS in real fights than on dummies because of things like that. Its completely normal and acceptable to take a slight hit because you got honey in T6, shriek in t7, kiting renauds, whatever. 'Deal with it' category.

My problem is that this "i whiffed ID now the world ends!" idea is that it is mathematically not very dramatic. 1 GCD opportunity cost. <200 pot because it only DELAYS your combo, not destroys it. This would be a true argument if there were raid bosses that had no rear like demon wall. THAT is problem. Not <200 pot for making (generally human errors) and once in a blue moon a bad RNG issue. It is, bluntly, not as big of a factor as people make it out to be and the math agrees with me. Also, people need to stop thinking mnks just pop a 3 min CD everytime they mess up. It is usually saved and pre-planned for specific phases to ramp up like after heavensfall to get up to speed for the Ghost>47% push on nael and such. Not because "whoops i dun did messed up my rotation! better PB!".

I'm also not sure if getting rid of the positional requirements would be the right way to rectify Dragoon. What I do know is that the job needs to be overhauled because as it is right now it simply does not measure up to the other melee jobs. The cost for mistakes is too high, and the reward for perfect performance is too low. add to that piss poor mdef that ensures you will be a burden on healers when those unavoidable magic aoe's flare up and pitiful utility, there is no argument that can be made for someone to opt to choose a dragoon over a ninja or a monk at end game.

And that is simply not right.

And, as i said i partially agree with this (not the 'mistakes cost is to high part'). The general complaint is drg doesnt compete in ST damage and/or doesnt bring enough party benefits. If that is in fact the basis of everyone complaint then reducing positionals doesnt fix ANY of that because it is: A) not as big of a DPS hit as people think it is B)Doesnt raise their overall damage, and C) Doesnt add any utility

Positionals are not the problem OR the solution which means its just "i want drg to be easier, not better" and thats just dumb.

[Felis]

What people are getting at is that while monks have a lot more positional, the only thing they suffer from is having a lowered potency on that hit. Dragoons would be unable to continue their combo or not gain an additional bonus if they miss theirs; They can't disembowel and they don't get heavy thrust's damage buff.

And because of this DRG have only on the start combo skill a position requirement and not on every skill of the combo
Missed the position? Use the start skill a second time before doing the next skill in the combo

[Fayto]

More words

Again, you are not understanding the actual issue. Also, yes. Missing Impulse Drive is a big deal. That is roughly nine seconds of DPS wasted. Missing Heavy Thrust is about six seconds wasted. I also checked your profile and you are not experienced enough to even understand the problems of Dragoon. You do not have Marauder to 26 and Pugilist to 42, so your crossclass skills aren't even proper. Don't care that you have the HA choker and earrings(not to mention the earrings are subpar on Dragoon), your entire posts here has shown you aren't getting it.

-Sincerely, A monk.

Edit: I take that back, you need those earrings as your Determination stat is far too low for you to be doing any significant damage.
Edit 2: Your skillspeed stat is far too high as well, you must be doing 0 DPS.

[Ooshima]

Tested it with WAR without defiance, and over the long haul PLD pushes ahead, equally geared. PLD does have the singularly best damage buff in game, Berserk does not compare. PLD v MRD? different game XD

Something's wrong with your test then. Dozens of people have tested with numbers to prove that the only way PLD in Sword Oath can out DPS a WAR is when it has the slashing debuff given by the WAR. Else a lone PLD win Sword Oath slashing the dummy will not surpass the lone WAR slashing on a dummy.

Anyways this thread is about DRG, lets not derail.

[Sawamura]

...

You mean everyone should just ignore drg? right? Or you mean revamp the whole drg with no idea?
Tell us how to fix it. Serious just tell us and guide us!

[Hakmatic]

"it's hard to land HT!" Is silly. That's just sugar covered QQ.

Once again you do not raid. You do not understand why it needs to be reworked. You do not understand the problem at all, and thats ok, we have all came to realize that you are about as dumb as a box of rocks. What about turn 11 last phase when you are tethered and cant flank / rear? Now you dont have your damage buff or piercing buff. But guess what, monks and nins still rolling on doing their shit out dpsing you, oh ya not only are they out dpsing but bringing some utility to the raid and not dying cause their mdef sucks. Lets not forget dragoon uses way more tp than both so pretty much defeating the purpose of the buff they offer bard cause now they are singing for days, hell just bring a nin and let him goad the bard and give him trick 1 time per min. Just gtfo out bro with your trolls.

[Aana]

Again, you are not understanding the actual issue. Also, yes. Missing Impulse Drive is a big deal. That is roughly nine seconds of DPS wasted. Missing Heavy Thrust is about six seconds wasted. I also checked your profile and you are not experienced enough to even understand the problems of Dragoon. You do not have Marauder to 26 and Pugilist to 42, so your crossclass skills aren't even proper. Don't care that you have the HA choker and earrings(not to mention the earrings are subpar on Dragoon), your entire posts here has shown you aren't getting it.

Once again you do not raid.

I dont know what your smoking. Im standing in town on my 50 maurader right now. This is also my alt char I leveled exclusively to get more time and gear playing drg on just so i could play it more frequently, so you can take your assumptions about me, and my experience and stuff it. I have more than enough raid experience to 'qualify' to have an opinion wheather you believe me or not. How many HA weapons do I need to qualify exactly? I have a few. Besides, its irrelivant since you havent refuted the statements so ill spell them out even more plainly.

And explain how loosing <200 pot is equivalent to 9 seconds of DPS? Im serious. Do the math for me and show your work because its simply not true.

What exactly is 'the actual issue' im missing? All i see here is "Drg doesnt do enough single target damage and/or doesnt have enough utility". Landing 1 more HT doesnt do squat about utility and until you can prove with actual #s instead of statements that the occasional missed HT or ID is somehow preventing Drg from keeping up with mnk then as far as im concerned, you are the one who isnt understanding the issue.

Explain to me how the proposed positioning easing in any way buffs party utility, or prove, mathematically that positional easing is a dramatic gain in DPS enough to 'fix' the ST DPS. Or are those not in fact the gripes with drg? What dont i get. Enlighten me, or just be the 20th person to blankly state yet again that i 'dont get it' without being able to articulate what 'it' is.

[Fayto]

I dont know what your smoking. Im standing in town on my 50 maurader right now. This is also my alt char I leveled

I so haven't heard that one before. I know you're lying. Also, it is worth 9 seconds of DPS lost because when you miss the skill, you have to start over from the beginning. It takes 2.5 seconds to use an ability without skill speed reduction. The first skill missed is 2.5 seconds plus another 2.5 seconds to reuse. You then continue to add from there. This is simple math dude. The last bit of your post was already answered multiple times, reread them.