DRG has been broken for far too long. Fix it SE

[Dragoonite]

lots of big strong words

You realize that foresight, prediction, and anticipating movement before hitting attacks is already more work than what's forced upon for Ninjas, and to some extent Monks.
Delaying your positional attacks to account for movement is a DPS loss in itself because of how much following the strict rotation is important and is one of the reasons Dragoon requires perfect psychic-tier play with the least rewarding output.

There's no point in saying "learn the fight" if your overall output for pristine play, let alone less than perfect play, is always going to be at or below par.

In addition: The fact that Monks can ignore some movement mechanics and use non-optimal positions more without fear of breaking/losing flow and still pull numbers at or around a Dragoon playing optimally (and nothing can even be said for Ninja who fears no positional requirements) is why the job is flawed.


It's literally the same as telling a BLM to "learn the fight" as to when to use spells, when to break spells, and when to dodge. Is it optimal? Yes. Is it advised? Yes.
Is it in any way balanced in comparison to your fellow Caster? Not even close.

[Sleigh]

It's literally the same as telling a BLM to "learn the fight" as to when to use spells, when to break spells, and when to dodge. Is it optimal? Yes. Is it advised? Yes.
Is it in any way balanced in comparison to your fellow Caster? Not even close.

Well the difference there is BLM can beat SMN (I assume you're referring to SMN when you say fellow Caster) if you play well, Fireweaving, using Swiftcast well, storing procs, using Aetherial Manipulation, using the shielding skills to mitigate force movement. BLM has higher raw damage so if you can bring it out more you can compete or beat SMN in actual, movement heavy fights, even if by default SMN is designed well for them and BLM is at the core designed against them.

In 2.2, this was not the case. SMN won on a dummy and especially in a real fight. Luckily they adjusted this so BLM only wins on a dummy fight, and it could go either way based on the mechanics and number of multi-DoT/AoE situations in a fight. They HAD to put BLM's DPS roof above SMN to compensate for movement or they would have had to change the core of BLM, and the way they went was fine.

Right now DRG vs NIN/MNK, it's kinda like the 2.2 BLM vs SMN situation: less max DPS roof from DRG (counting BRD buff DPS), and requires far more work to be near max than its melee brothers. When DRG loses in dummy fights and in most real fights there's a problem.

[Gardes]

Drg is in no way vying for the most complex dps in any category. The ONLY thing you have to do is land 3 HT and 2 ID'S a minute.

People keep saying this but isn't monk essentially very similar rotation wise? Do correct me if I'm wrong here but looks to me, while they have a different combo system but the rotation still boils down to something similar, except shorter (alternating back and side 1st and 2nd hit, inserting demo every 2 snaps vs alternating heavy and phleb after every 3 hit combo and inserting chaos combo for every 2 full combo). Mnks also have less ogcds to use and have them on longer cool downs for their job specific ogcds. Monks also make a huge deal out of getting in hits out of forced encounter pause (rightfully so) but wouldn't any dps want to get in any hits they can too?

I'm not saying that you're saying something as extreme as saying that dragoon is the easiest class to play but others do and I fail to see where they're coming from.

reply to me

Which post of mine are you exactly replying to? Cause I'm pretty sure I'm not the one not getting dragoon's mechanic/utility/dps cap 'issues'.

[RiceisNice]

..

What people are getting at is that while monks have a lot more positional, the only thing they suffer from is having a lowered potency on that hit. Dragoons would be unable to continue their combo or not gain an additional bonus if they miss theirs; They can't disembowel and they don't get heavy thrust's damage buff.

The problem is further compounded on certain encounters where bosses get a bit trigger happy with turning around to throw fireballs or lasers. Now more so now that DRG has even more competition, and this time against another dps who doesn't have any positional restrictions and provide the same (debatable with piercing resistance vs 10% damage), if not more (Goat.) than DRG.

[Maero]

Positioning for Monk as well Yes but most complex class No. While Ninja does not have position requirements i think it is more complex then Monk and dragoon is less forgiving if you are not at a certain position as it is a rather large loss of dps.
Anywho i thought this thread was about dragoon?

[HulveinBlitz]

Anywho i thought this thread was about dragoon?

Dont think you can have a thread about this kind of issue, without mentioning the other classes within its tier.

[Dragoonite]

1520 characters

Yup. I was just bringing up the argument that some BLM/SMN players said before 2.3's BLM buffs. "Learn the fight" was almost always the brunt of the counter argument against looking at balancing BLMs. The other counter argument was "but you're good at AoE" which seems to be a counter argument for DRG also (with Ring of Thorns and Doom Spike)...but really, if you're scraping the barrel so much as to say a melee job's strength over others is AoE, then you need to take a good long look at how roles work.

Right now, DRGs are roughly (in a big picture sense) in the same boat as 2.2~ BLMs. Requires twice as much effort for half the payout and suffers from things they lack control over.

[Aana]

My point is every job has their issues to deal with. This is just like the blm complaining that they get interrupted. That's part of your job to manage. A good blm finds ways to eek out that extra cast. Knows monster timings to dodge and get spells off. A good drg knows how monsters turn and builds their play around it. Good Mnk does the same and has tricks to gl. Smn manages their pet and their own spells. Tanks need to know mob rotations more intimately than anyone so they can preemptively have CD up. It comes with the territory. Every job has issues to deal with and to excel at that job over avg Joe you find ways to deal with those limitations. That's called skill. Some people find certain issues very easy to manage while you may find them hard and vice versa. If you soften the 5 positions a minute then you need to add another limitation somewhere else.

Saying you can't land HT because a mob turns to perform a scripted move is the same as a war complaining they can't IB mountain buster because there's no warning or telegraph. To bad. Learn the fight.

"Twice as much effort"? "Half the payout"? Exaggerate much. This just in. Drg is 2x as hard as mnk and does 50% it's damage. Get real. Drg isn't that Iimpossible to play nor is mnks few extra dps in a real fight that obscene.

[Dragoonite]

1709 characters.

You're missing the point. It's not just about damage, it's about utility, survivability, synchronicity with other jobs, et cetera. Things that Dragoon is -required- to pay extra attention to for a result that barely scrapes by.

And yes, it is an exaggeration. It's a phrase, a saying, an idiom, to get a point across. Read between the lines, everything isn't just black and white.

[Hakmatic]

I guys this aana person doesnt raid.... dragoon is flat out the worse melee dps in high end raids hands down. Drg dps and utility is far less than its melee counter parts nin/mnk There is absolutely no reason to bring a drg over a monk or ninja to raid with.