Hey, Sincerely Thank You SE for easing up on Coil

[NyarukoW]

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People refuse to let go of their prejudice and stereotypes. The same way those casual/low skilled players always call raiders elitists or toxic. Like either group is described so simply. ....

Yet you choose to stereotype casual/low skilled players (case in point in your words above). The vast majority of newer players and newbies do NOT know enough to attempt to treat anyone else with ridicule or contempt. They only respond when they realize someone is working to block them and making their path more difficult. Whereas there a select group of loud and vocal experienced players actively seeking to make it hard for rest of the player base, they even go as far as asking for "no newbies wanted" checkbox, and look to exclude people when the myth bonus shows up, and force 1st-timers to skip their cutscenes, etc. etc. New player don't start out like that, those are learned behavior of experienced players. And who else but the experienced players with T9 on farm has the audacity to sell SCOB turns for 60 mil.

SE has the data for both clear rates and subscription rates. They know the that keeping things as they are is both unreasonable and unnecessary, and they will adjust difficulty level of old content as scheduled when they have new content to replace them, because it will help the game and their finances. It is a win-win for them and this a valid position, you have been unable to prove this false.

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False. There are very good balance and pacing reasons to do so. Especially since the game is so young and is still low on content. This mind set you have that there is zero merit shows how little you are even considering the opposing argument.

False? It is your faulty logic and invalid claims. I read an considered your rants, but I am under no obligations to accept your incorrect opinions. And even in a simple statement like this you fail to separate your subjective opinion about "young" and "low" from fact. And even if I grant you that false premise, SE is still well within their right to add new content and reduce existing content difficulty, since the simple fact remains that the orignial BCOB was given this treatment when there was less content for sure and did so to great success.

[Tiggy]

Yet you choose to stereotype casual/low skilled players (case in point in your words above).

Notice I didn't pick one but listed both. This was as best an attempt as possible to make it clear who I'm discussing. I advocate a more friendly enviroment, but I'm not so ignorance to acknowledge that there are large groups of people with very common characteristics. Just as "raiders" is a group of people who all raid, there most certainly exists a low skilled group that could be labeled as such or a casual group that could be labeled as such. Labeling that group isn't the problem. Sticking to prejudices and stereotypes about that label is something else entirely. You're attempt to make me out to be a hypocrite fails. Maybe we need a new name with less context to call them by so there is less negative connotation. Not like it will catch on though.

And stop acting like everyone having problems getting T5 down or some of the tougher fights is a victim. That's insulting to people who don't have time due to work, family, friends, or other reasons. Not everyone is being held down by "the man."
Also, stop acting like everyone who beats this content is a run selling ego maniac lording their winnings over all. That's a great example of stereotypes and prejudices at work and it's not even remotely true.

And even in a simple statement like this you fail to separate your subjective opinion about "young" and "low" from fact. And even if I grant you that false premise, SE is still well within their right to add new content and reduce existing content difficulty, since the simple fact remains that the orignial BCOB was given this treatment when there was less content for sure and did so to great success.

Fact: The game is barely a year old. That is quite young in MMO standards. Look at long lasting MMO's like WoW, FFXI, and Everquest as proof of the point. To that point the age is directly proportionate to the amount of content. The older the game is the more content is has. This isn't subjective that the game is barely over a year old and still has little content.

Fact: I've never argued even once that what they are doing to the SOCB is bad, or overdone, or uncessary. I have in fact on several instances defended the changes and have on repeated occasions advocated a for more mid skill level content which SOCB with nerfs exactly is. Especially once we all get better gear and the echo kicks in.

Do you have any idea why you have a problem with me at all? Is it really so subjective that having content between easy and super hard is a bad thing for the game because that's what I've been saying the entire time. I'm thinking there is a reading comprehension fail if you have been reading what I've said because I don't think you got my message at all.

Maybe it's time to calm down all the defensive posting and try to understand what people are saying instead of just lashing out at them. Clearly we aren't that much in disagreement, but you've already lumped me in the elitist crowd even though I don't in any way advocate a no nerf scenario. In your haste to prove me wrong, nitpick every little thing, and attempt to defend every "oppressed" players "everywhere" you've completely missed my message.

[NyarukoW]

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Fact: The game is barely a year old. ... WoW, FFXI, and Everquest ... This isn't subjective that the game is barely over a year old and still has little content.

I know I probably don't win any points for arguing this. But you continue to confuse fact with you subjective evaluations.
Fact is the game barely a year old. It is your subjective opinion that it is young.
Fact WoW, FFXI, EQ, etc. are older and has more content. But it is your subjective opinion that FFXIV ARR has little content.

This is how you get yourself into logical fallacies and false equivalences.

...
And stop acting like everyone having problems getting T5 down or some of the tougher fights is a victim. ...

I've never taken that position about players clearing any content. But I have pointed out that when that select group of experienced players continually seek to exclude and even advocate for tools like the "no newbies wanted" checkbox of the PF and DF, they are doing a service to the game and community. I am advocating that people be more patient and give more players for leeway and so what if it is a few dozen wipes. Wipes are part of the game and expecting a win 100% of the time is unreasonable. If people took this attitude, it would greatly help the community and players as a whole.

But the reality is people farming T9 are selling SCOB turns for 60 mil gil. That is a fact.

[Tiggy]

I know I probably don't win any points for arguing this. But you continue to confuse fact with you subjective evaluations.
Fact is the game barely a year old. It is your subjective opinion that it is young.
Fact WoW, FFXI, EQ, etc. are older and has more content. But it is your subjective opinion that FFXIV ARR has little content.

This is how you get yourself into logical fallacies and false equivalences.

There are several MMO's out that make FFXIV look like an infant.
- Everquest 15 years
- Ultima Online 16 Years
- Final Fantasy XI 12 years

Older games have more content, or do you really intend to tell me FFXIV stands up to XI in terms of content? (Yes, I know the older it is it has more content, but that's the point.)
Until such a time as FFXIV has more content everything can't be divided so simply into super easy or super hard. Some content will be spread out to create a mid game. Older more mature MMO's have fully developed mid games due to moving older content into that niche. We don't have that niche in this game yet because we have very little content. Now that SCOB is unlocked we finally have the beginnings of one. We have a clearly defined easy game (CT, ST, FCOB, dungeons), midgame (Second Coil, Some Ex Primals, Ultima Hard Mode), and hard game (newest ex primal, TCOB) and it's finally beginning to flesh out. We are only now after all seeing the end of the first full development life cycle as we approach the first expansion.

You keep using those words, but I have reasons to believe what I think so I reject them and I do not think you know what they mean.
Unless of course a 1 year old game somehow doesn't seem young compared to games over a decade old, or that somehow it's content maturity even stands a chance against those incumbents. I'd love to see that argument.

But the reality is people farming T9 are selling SCOB turns for 60 mil gil. That is a fact.

SOME people do that. Not everyone. You need to realize that your judging the whole by the actions of a few. That's textbook discrimination and prejudice. Some people can be, for lack of a better word, complete d-bags. That doesn't mean those people are limited to the raider group. There are just as many that don't raid at all. I take offense that just because I raid I must sell runs, or I must clearly do "clears only" pug groups, or any other horrible thing. You don't know me, or anything about me, or anything about anyone else here on this forum. Acting like we all do that is inaccurate, and since you love it, a logical fallacy.

The assertion that some raiders are bad people therefore all raiders are bad people is false.

You see this kind of assessment is subjective by its nature.
Th

1 year is young compared to the 15 Ultima online has been around for and it claims to have created the genre. It's not subjective that FFXIV is a young game at all. You're criteria for what designates an MMO as "old" is flawed and your grasping at straws. Comparing a 1 year old game to a game that just launched is a very poor way to judge what constitutes an old MMO.

The problems is when you do NOT use precise language you are subject to being lead into logical fallacies and fall into the trap of false equivalences.

The problem is you can only nitpick failures at being extremely precise because you have no other leg to stand on. You know exactly what I'm trying to say, but you degrade down to arguing about how to determine the age of an MMO and semantics? Seriously man? You're the one acting like all raiders are terrible people. Concentrate on your own fallacies.

And so you make false assertions and deliberately put words in my mouth that I never said.

Fact remains people are selling SCOB turns for 60 mil. Also fact we see PFs with requirements must have clears or multiple clears. What does this imply? The select group of those experienced players (not all) are not treating the the rest of the player base with the proper respect and not being inclusive of the rest of the player base, and this kind of bad behavior needs to stop.

I think most people in this thread can appreciate the fact that your rhetoric and the words you just said disagree with one another.

And so you make false assertions and deliberately put words in my mouth that I never said.

I never said you spoke those words. I was paraphrasing the way your rhetoric was making you sound using my own words in a stand logic If A Therfore B format. Once again nitpicking. You keep bringing up logic and fallacies so my apologies if I thought you'd understand the form.

I'm out of posts so I'm done for the day. Done having every possible way to nitpick an English sentence to sidetrack and distract from an argument when the meaning was clear as it is. Pretty insane that people just can't have a conversation or admit when maybe they went overboard in their rhetoric.

[NyarukoW]

...but I have reasons to believe what I think so I reject them and I do not think you know what they mean.
...I'd love to see that argument.

Simple case, your friend new to FFXIV watching you play FFXIV ARR friend ask you, "Are you playing a new game?"
Obviously the answer is no, it is not a new game, it actually old, to be precise a little of over a year old. So it is "younger" than many, but it is plenty old. You see this kind of assessment is subjective by its nature.

Next they ask, "what do you do in this game"? You tell them that you have nothing to do meaning there is little content? Certainly not. Again this is a subjective assessment. It has less than many, but compared to vast majority of games like COD (or any of its iterations) it has way more content.

The problems is when you do NOT use precise language you are subject to being lead into logical fallacies and fall into the trap of false equivalences.

...The assertion that some raiders are bad people therefore all raiders are bad people is false.

And so you make false assertions and deliberately put words in my mouth that I never said.

Fact remains people are selling SCOB turns for 60 mil. Also fact we see PFs with requirements must have clears or multiple clears. What does this imply? The select group of those experienced players (not all) are not treating the the rest of the player base with the proper respect and not being inclusive of the rest of the player base, and this kind of bad behavior needs to stop.