Keep past content out of Cash Shop

[Nominous]

Oh, and speaking on the seasonal items that are now being offered as cash shop instead...Since that seems to be YOUR main worry, anyway...

So now, all of a sudden, people want these items so bad? I understand the swimsuit thing for females, because that's actually something I see glamoured a lot. But everything else? In my one year of playing, and thousands of players I've seen, I've only ever met one person who continuously uses a pumpkin-head glamour, and maybe 3 who wear anything else that's obtained from a seasonal event. That's with your precious event-vendor intact, and it being publicly available to everyone. With so few people actually interested in collecting this gear (and even fewer actually wearing it), it's mind-boggling how people exploded on this topic.

I almost want to compare it to the mindset of a little kid, who's parent is throwing away an old toy that they never play with anymore. Sure it was there, but if the kid isn't playing with it, then there's no reason to keep it around, cluttering space. The community is sort of identical to the kid in that situation, when they cry, even though they haven't cared about that toy for months. Except for in this case, they're selling it back to you. It's stuff that not only looks kind of crappy, but is affordable, and won't break the bank. At this point, you're arguing principles and morality, which, as a business, they don't really care about. Unless, of course, it somehow leads to them making less money. (Hint- Don't buy it if you want to send a message)

[Roris]

Oh, and speaking on the seasonal items that are now being offered as cash shop instead...Since that seems to be YOUR main worry, anyway...

So now, all of a sudden, people want these items so bad? I understand the swimsuit thing for females, because that's actually something I see glamoured a lot. But everything else? In my one year of playing, and thousands of players I've seen, I've only ever met one person who continuously uses a pumpkin-head glamour, and maybe 3 who wear anything else that's obtained from a seasonal event. That's with your precious event-vendor intact, and it be publicly available to everyone. With so few people actually interested in collecting this gear (and even fewer actually wearing it), it's mind-boggling how people exploded on this topic.

Well that might be your personal experience and opinion but I've seen plenty of people wearing all the vanity that's glamourable both on the server and on the DF. The people you don't see are probably because they couldn't obtain them in the first place, especially PS4 players who didn't even get a chance to do the events because that version launched on April 2014, so now they're screwed because the only way to get them is to buy them from the cash shop.

If that isn't a disadvantage I don't know what is. Why should they be punished, as minor of a punishment as you think not being able to get vanity in game is, because of their platform of choice? Why shouldn't a brand new player have a chance at getting those items in game, a player brand new to Final Fantasy even, who didn't follow the game at all? PS4 players that got the game around September this year or before that got the chance to get last year's swimsuits along with the 1.0 yukatas, so why just limit it to that event, even though past events also offered previous items? It wasn't even because it was the anniversary event, though admittedly it was included under that umbrella of events, but the actual anniversary event came out about a month later.

Around 5 or so seasonal events since launch had included previous 1.0 event items and even one event included 2.0 items all purchasable with gil, even if you didn't do those events in both 1.0 and 2.0, so why stop doing that just now after all this time? People keep saying they need the money, well they needed that money even more before ARR's launch, so why not straight up announce a cash shop at launch?. Why not clearly state that event items would be one off only, and would later be placed in the cash shop since the very start?

This is also a question that no one seems to answer, not even a simple "well it's their game so they do what they want and don't have to answer to anyone!" which would be a terrible response but would still be a response. "Well plans change" would also be a terrible response because why change their plans so late? They had less money before, so a cash shop would make more sense before when they needed those extra funds. So now that the game is successful and has 2.5 million adventurers they, understandably, want more money? But wait, didn't they have less money before than now, so why not launch with it in the first place? Doesn't make sense, or rather it does make plenty of sense business wise I guess, especially now that those 2.5 million adventures are potential cash shop buyers. If people do end up buying from it that is, bless their souls.

[Nominous]

I see a lot of (likely not the majority) of players on my server with the vanity gear. Poor PS4 players who never had the chance to get the gear! D: It's somehow a disadvantage to not have something that is vanity only, and only hurts your experience if you're someone who thinks the option alone of having everything, means everything. Poor. PS4. Players. Why not say that the ability would be removed eventually, to buy these older event items from 1.0/previous events? Bless the souls of those poor PS4 players. Doesn't Square Enix have enough money?!

Satire aside, go tally up the people on your server who have prior seasonal event gear glamoured. The ratio will likely always be in favor of those who don't use them. I'm of the mindset that people don't care enough, because if they did, where were all of the, "When is this event coming back! PETITION" threads? Exactly.

The argument that PS4 players couldn't get them, and now it's being charged for? Tough luck. There's all kinds of things that operate like this, you know, back in the real world. Game is cheaper through your favorite company (whom you always give your business), and only for a day, but you weren't able to make it in? Too bad, you may never see that deal again. I could make a list of comparisons, but you get the idea. Common business practice to have things that are at one point free, or cheaper, then charge for them down the road.

It isn't a disadvantage. You just want the option alone, to have everything you want in the game, without any questions asked, regardless of your intent to use it (or lack thereof). It's pixels to make your character look different. Of which, you have plenty of options to mess around with. I assure you, you aren't hurting for more customization, especially in light of how they've treated patches lately, adding tons of clothing options. Honestly, people are mad that they didn't (or couldn't) attend an event, and still want the items for free? Continuing with this train of thought...

Where's all of the people complaining that they can't have a Moogle outfit, because they weren't able to go to Fan Fest, or pay 20 dollars for a premium stream on top of their oh-so-woeful subscription fee? It's literally the same logic. You pay a sub fee, and you should have access to a Moogle costume, by your logic. Yet you don't see ANYBODY complaining about that. Think about that.

I'm almost positive someone made a post earlier in this thread, about how eventually they WOULD stop selling past event items like that. If they didn't, they aren't contractually obligated to tell you these things. Simple.

Finally, when did you become their business consultant? This is why I tend to try and stay as neutral, or developer/business side of these arguments. You are in no position to tell them they're making enough money. Gamers like to put a veil on like business politics don't, or shouldn't touch video games. You're an adult (I hope), you should know that this, like anything else, is subject to these things. Your money is important to them, but your sub-fee doesn't mean they can't seek alternate avenues of money-gain. You have to put on your business-person thinking mind if you're going to talk about something directly involving it. And my business-person mind tells me that, even if we're doing good, we can always do better in terms of profit. That's not wrong, that's just trying to be as profitable a business you can be. As far as morals go, this is HARDLY reaching territory of other companies.

People take SE for granted.

[Roris]

snip

The people that could get those items might only glamour them on those seasons, others might have found a better glamour since then. Others might have gotten them simply to collect them and might wear them from time to time but don't use those glamours or any glamour in general because they don't like crafting the prism every time they get an upgraded piece of gear if they even have crafting classes leveled, if not they might not like having to buy them. There are many factors as to why people use and don't use a specific item for vanity that really have nothing to do with this thread's topic at all.

Second, you say though luck for PS4 players and are quick to dismiss them with some childish satire, but recently they mentioned some crafting related changes made specifically for them, so they obviously do have them in mind. I know, crafting related stuff is more important than inconsequential vanity right? Even though vanity is pretty much on top of the list of crafting stuff and a good amount of crafting items added each patch are just vanity which admittedly even you seem to acknowledge. You also keep using the tired "ok kid, real world" argument and mention how lots of stuff is limited time only in the real world, which is fine and dandy because in 1.0 seasonal events worked exactly like that. There were no vendor NPCs to sell last year items so people were already used to that. So, why bring them back at all in every other 2.0 event up until this year's Halloween event then?

They were always upfront about which items would be limited time only, about which items would be removed and which items would stay. Dated gear, the Dalamud horn, Manderville earrings, White Ravens, the first goobbue, those and more are all gone and most people are fine with them being limited time items. Now I have seen some threads asking for a way to get some those items in ARR, some understandably make more sense to make a comeback like the Chocobo mask to go with the new suit, other items not so much. Either way most people in those threads seem to be understanding of them being limited rewards for people who stuck with the game back then and would have no qualms with those items staying limited. I myself having most of those 1.0 items including White Ravens would have no qualms with people getting a chance at obtaining them nor would I have qualms with them staying limited, though I'm sure people would be upset if White Ravens did end up in the shop instead of being obtainable in say a Minstrel's Ballad or even Savage, but hey business.

The moogle attire is first and foremost an in game reward alongside the other physical goodies visitors got. Everyone has indeed already thought about that and I'm sure most people understand that, just like they understand minions being tied to other physical merchandise. You buy the box of cereal because you're hungry and you also get a toy or a sticker, though admittedly the toy and sticker itself might be the main reason to buy that box for some. In the case of the premium stream, it's an in game item to go along with the digital HD stream, it's as simple as that. They've done that in the past with the CE, the physical edition includes all those physical items and also some in game rewards, while the digital CE is just digital in game items because obviously no physical anything. Like some people have mentioned previously, it's a way to get some of those in game items once all the CEs run out, because CEs are limited by definition and item codes are linked to an account and untradable once used. It might be similar in concept to a cash shop but still not quite the same because once again, there's that physical quantification that comes first. If there hadn't been a physical CE at all or Fanfest wasn't open to the public and was stream only then sure, but that's clearly not the case at all.

I don't think anyone is mad over any of this, the general feeling is disappointment. Personally I'm still laughing at how desperately some are trying to justify the cash shop simply because their favorite company and MMO is doing it. By the way you also didn't answer my other question, why not simply add all this cash shop stuff right from the beginning? Everyone keeps saying how they're all about making money as a business right? So wouldn't they be making more money if they launched with a cash shop right from the start? Makes sense as a business to consider those alternate avenues well before the relaunch and then implement them right at launch rather than wait an entire year, an entire year they now have wasted and could have been making additional profits all along. Instead, they announced it out of the blue a week before a big patch, and not simply any patch but two patches before the expansion, not even the middle 2.0 series patch. I'm all about anyone making money so I don't know why you think morality comes into play or why using the good old "yeah well other companies charge more so you should be glad!" is even relevant.

It's funny how no one ever answers this, why not add the cash shop right at launch? It's a simple answer, though I'm sure that whenever it'll be answered, it'll be as dismissive as your post. You might say "well they didn't have the resources to set up the page and the shop" but the Mog Station was there from day one. You might say "well it was very basic and they didn't have the time to expand it" so sure, I'll give you that, then why not simply state their plans well in advance while they worked on it? Plans can be, you know, mentioned in advance. Plans were mentioned clearly all around 1.0s development cycle, they might not have stuck with them but they were always stated. A simple "we'll be looking into adding a cash shop around patch X featuring past seasonal event items" around launch would have sufficed, not just dropping the bomb at Fantest a week before 2.4.

And no "it's their game so they do what they want!" will not suffice.

[polyphonica]

why not simply add all this cash shop stuff right from the beginning? Everyone keeps saying how they're all about making money as a business right? So wouldn't they be making more money if they launched with a cash shop right from the start? Makes sense as a business to consider those alternate avenues well before the relaunch and then implement them right at launch rather than wait an entire year, an entire year they now have wasted and could have been making additional profits all along. Instead, they announced it out of the blue a week before a big patch, and not simply any patch but two patches before the expansion, not even the middle 2.0 series patch.

They've been selling premium items from the get-go in terms of CE, pre-order bonus, pack-in with the soundtracks, and then Fantasia potion sets, added Retainer service, and the recent fan fest set (in-person and $20 premium streams). They also commented many months ago that the current way of selling Fantasia was limited and they were going to work on a more flexible shop in the future, so this wouldn't be a big surprise to people who had been following the Live Letters (which is where this too was announced).

But I mean, it's not so mysterious why they've been phasing this in gradually as the game gets more acceptance/popularity. Cash shops generate this kind of controversy, but once the game has enough momentum, it becomes less of a big deal. Given that Blizzard is doing it with WoW, I'm sure S-E's shareholders would eventually ask why they're leaving money on the table.

This isn't saying people shouldn't voice their opinions or complain. I am, though, still a bit surprised that this is the upsetting part, as opposed to the increase in items that will never be obtainable in-game otherwise.

[Roris]

They've been selling premium items from the get-go in terms of CE, pre-order bonus, pack-in with the soundtracks, and then Fantasia potion sets, added Retainer service, and the recent fan fest set (in-person and $20 premium streams). They also commented many months ago that the current way of selling Fantasia was limited and they were going to work on a more flexible shop in the future, so this wouldn't be a big surprise to people who had been following the Live Letters (which is where this too was announced).

But I mean, it's not so mysterious why they've been phasing this in gradually as the game gets more acceptance/popularity. Cash shops generate this kind of controversy, but once the game has enough momentum, it becomes less of a big deal. Given that Blizzard is doing it with WoW, I'm sure S-E's shareholders would eventually ask why they're leaving money on the table.

This isn't saying people shouldn't voice their opinions or complain. I am, though, still a bit surprised that this is the upsetting part, as opposed to the increase in items that will never be obtainable in-game otherwise.

Oh for sure, it was always indeed clear this game was headed towards an inevitable cash shop right from the start, as much as some people denied it back then. It was however just an assumption back then and was never clearly stated until now, the plans and signs might have always been there and clear for people who knew how to identify them, but for others to see them being straight up confirmed out of the blue just a week before 2.4 is kind of a surprise.

I personally do have a couple of issues with some items being removed and never being obtainable in game whether by purchase with gil or by completing quests, especially those that already had the antecedent of making a comeback like seasonal items up until this Halloween event. On the other hand I also don't mind other items being limited time only because like I mentioned, there are a lot of 1.0 items that aren't obtainable anymore, so the antecedent was already there. However, that time it was established well in advance, they gave a warning plenty of months ahead and a clear list of which items would be removed. This time however, it came without a warning a week before a major patch. They had already well established the precedent that previous seasonal event items would make a come back each year, they did so at least 5 times if not more for every seasonal event since ARR's launch, only to suddenly remove them from this year's Halloween event and therefore from every seasonal event afterwards without mentioning anything about it before Fanfest.

Introducing this slowly in phases is exactly like the good old boiling frog metaphor. I've said this before, I'm sure if they mentioned this since 1.X it would have generated as much controversy as now, but I believe it would have also been better accepted due to 1.0s financial situation in general. As a consumer at least I'd like some sort of notice well in advance of what's going to happen, though sure shareholders are what's more important company wise and I'm sure they've been asking for a cash shop ever since 1.0. It's just that, had they straight up mentioned their cash shop plans well in advance along with their plans to remove items from in game and move them into the cash shop, and given a list of exactly which items would be removed, it would have been slightly more palatable.

[Nominous]

-

This is really a never-ending argument because you'll inevitably feel the way you do, and the same goes for me. It's really tiring to debate this, because it's pure opinion on both sides, as to how important these things actually are.

Some people feel like their wallets are targeted, and that's 'not okay'. It's not uncommon to feel that way. If you came to a sub-fee MMO because you feel like you should be pampered, I mean, you wouldn't be of the wrong mindset, considering it's how it was for a long time. Others understand the definition of optional, and don't feel the need to worry themselves with the semantics of it all. If it's something they want, a few extra bucks isn't breaking their bank. If not, whatever, move along. Not everyone has to feel the same way, but there's literally people who are taking it to the level of, "I'm cancelling my sub because of this". It just gets me riled up that people can even begin to be so moved by nothing but a principle. Literally leaving the game they've spent (maybe) months worth of money, and time on because the company does something that they feel like they have to hold a grudge on. That's everyone's choice, but it's still wild.

As for that question. Of course they didn't do that from the beginning. I'm not a business major, or anything, but I could assume that after a long haul of trying to re-launch the game, and make it marketable even with a sub-fee, the first thing on their list wouldn't be to talk about a Cash Shop. I mean, all things considered, the game failed so hard that it was free for like, a year. If any of the people who initially hated it saw that it would require a sub-fee in ARR, plus would have a Cash Shop with any hints of exclusivity, it might be enough for them to not even drop money to try it. I don't know what you're trying to prove with the answer to that though, other than the fact that they chose to leave players in the dark about this. I feel like that's not really a fair point though, considering the concept itself was introduced with fantasia, and other optional services that they charged for. It was never explicitly stated that they intended for a Cash Shop to be implemented, but again, the concept of being charged extra on top of your sub-fee for things you might want, was always there.

[Malric]

I am, though, still a bit surprised that this is the upsetting part, as opposed to the increase in items that will never be obtainable in-game otherwise.

I think a lot of the "anti-cash-shop" people share a pretty common position on this one.

"It always starts with cosmetic stuff!" (which is true)

One can argue over the philosophy of cash shop games vs. p2p until the ends of the earth.

It won't change the fact that many people came to this game because it wasn't one.

Many people leave games because of them (WoW included)

SE will try to break it in just like every other company ever has, they will be no different.

Starts with cosmetics, then it'll be mounts because those don't have an effect on game.

This will move to other things that don't "really" effect game play like housing furniture.

Then it'll be small boosts to things like rested XP or low level only buffs.

In time it becomes things like raid/loot cooldown reset scrolls so they get the hard core crowd's support.

After that everything becomes fair game.

Gear, Levels, Boosts & pots with separate cooldowns.

And the cycle continues...

Not all cash shops offer all of this (some offer way more), but I've never seen a game stop at cosmetics either.

[maxthunder1]

[QUOTE=Nominous;2524788] snip

I started in august of this year and was unable to get those items because I wasnt there, and was looking forward to buying the items for halloween and x-mas, but Ill be damned if I pay cash for them. They should have done what they have done in the past first. As of say January 2015 all those items could have been put in the cash shop or they could have given players a notice instead of trying to pull a fast one. My question is why the sudden need for a cash shop? Is ARR not doing that well? Has Yoshi not been honest with how many subscriptions the game has? There is more to this story than whats being told or not told.

[Amberion]

Oh, and speaking on the seasonal items that are now being offered as cash shop instead...Since that seems to be YOUR main worry, anyway...

So now, all of a sudden, people want these items so bad? I understand the swimsuit thing for females, because that's actually something I see glamoured a lot.

Just because event items in the past as you claim haven't been nice enough for people to wear. Who is to say that it will be that way all the time?