Paladin needs an enmity/potency buff.

[Alphras]

The enmity generation is about identical. A PLD has an aggro modifier on every combo he does. WAR needs to throw in combos with no aggro modifier at all (at least every third combo).

Another factor is, that WAR loses 25% dmg in tanking stance, PLD only 20%. PLD has 163 avg. potency on the aggro combo while tanking, WAR only 158.

[Xyphon]

@Alphras

Except wars penalty is reduced to 5% after the maim buff, and nullified with storms eye debuff. That's without unchained and berserk even.

Not sure what you ment by war having no enmity modifier outside of Butcher's block, considering defiance adds one to any skill you use.

The enmity is not the same due to the differences in potency, and especially after the enmity multiplier. Butcher's block has a 280 potency, that's a 20 difference in potency compared to halone. 5% less dmg in defiance (compared to shield oath) does not equal that potency difference.

[SeraviEdalborez]

Apparently nobody looks at the fact the only skill pld has with 250+ potency in a combo is halone (260); while warrior has 3.

First, if you're counting Inner Beast then I don't see why you don't also count Spirits Within.

Second, potency isn't the whole story. A WAR playing like a PLD and using only their enmity combo is stupid.
472.5: Total pot of Butcher combo with no Maim, Defiance 25% penalty
488.8: Total pot of Halone combo with Shield Oath 20% penalty

Wow look at that, Butcher is actually worse. Throwing Maim in makes it better, but Maim combos do not generate additional enmity other than the innate bonus from Defiance. It evens out. WAR can also spike ahead with a correct opener (Unchained>Berserk)

[Xyphon]

Inner beast is tied to wrath stacking mechanics, where as spirits is just a straight off gcd ability. I wasn't counting off gcd moves because I felt they were pretty balanced.

I was talking strictly halone vs Butcher's block.

As for like wars 25% reduction that's 280*.25 = 70. Meaning 280-70= 210.

Pld is 20% reduction so thats 260*.20 = 52. Meaning 260-52=208.

You added them together as if the action was used as one move. I'm counting each move in the combo separately, due to that's how you build threat.

As for enmity modifiers from defiance or shield oath on non enmity moves, they are multiplied by damage dealt.

I'm surprised someone who actively posts on bg isn't aware of the enmity table floating around since beta phase 3.

[SeraviEdalborez]

I'm surprised someone who actively posts on bg isn't aware of the enmity table floating around since beta phase 3.

Which are imprecise and outdated. The values for Overpower, hatecombo 2 and hatecombo 3 are all slightly off compared to the old valk tables. As an aside: Tomahawk is worse net enmity generation than Overpower and only has 3y less range and 10 less potency.

You can't compare just one move to just one other move. But as long as we're doing it:

Savage: 200*0.8=160
Skull: 200*0.75=150

Forgot about that?

[Xyphon]

Right, so at that stage pld would have more potency. Overall potency pld is ahead; not including any off gcd abilities or buffs. Then toss in the typical berserk/unchained pull, and warrior skyrockets with enmity.

Though, what I'm basically trying to say is overall threat/enmity generation is never the issue. Its the threat building I feel has flaws in it, and its where people typically will loose threat. Good example is if for some reason dps bursts dmg right as your half way through your enmity rotation. For a split second they could pull ahead, but then as soon as you end with your final hit you go above them. If we had other mechanics like say haste...it would be a completely different story.

As for the table, the values maybe outdated but the information is the same. All you have to do is change a couple potency values, and reapply them to the formulas. The basic principals have not changed at all.

I can understand why people don't want SE to look at how paladin functions; they are scared like ff11 days that they will mess something big time.

[Alphras]

So your problem is that you cannot hold hate against dps that go nuts when you pull? Don't worry, that is the same with WAR and not really a problem at all ...

@Alphras
Except wars penalty is reduced to 5% after the maim buff, and nullified with storms eye debuff. That's without unchained and berserk even.

Not sure what you ment by war having no enmity modifier outside of Butcher's block, considering defiance adds one to any skill you use..

The Maim combo (or more like Storm's Eye/Storm's Path combo) does not have an enmity modifier. I get the feeling that you don't really want to see the point.

[Xyphon]

@Alphras-

I never said I have an issue holding threat. I play both warrior, paladin and dps. Not sure where you are reading this information from.

The maim combo by itself has no enmity modifier. But every ability used under defiance gives it an enmity modifier. I've stated this 3 posts ago, so I'm not really sure if you are trolling me.

My info comes from here:



Keep in mind the potency of some moves have changed since 2.2. But the overall formula works exactly the same.

Just so people can see the pld chart:



Source is:
http://valk.dancing-mad.com/tables/enmity-tables/

[Alphras]

I don't understand what defiance has to do with this. I was talking about the enmity modifiers on the skills. There is no point in incorporating the Defiance/Shield Oath enmity multiplier when comparing PLD and WAR enmity, as they are exactly the same.

The point was: PLD can spam his enmity combo all the time and WAR needs to use combos that have no enmity modifiers on the skills. Therefore WAR needs a higher potency on his aggro combo to balance this (which he gets via multiple damage buffs).

Edit: And this tables don't incorporate the dmg penalties from Shield Oath/Defiance.

[Xyphon]

@Alphras -Paladin spams the 123 halone because they have no choice in terms of skill rotations. The only time you ever use riot is for regaining mp.

You are obviously stressing that warrior cannot just spam butcher's block while MT, and I completely agree.

Though I still don't see how warrior is gimp in keeping threat, even with doing path/eye in between butchers block. Due to using the other combo, specifically maim and storms eye, it increases your butchers block threat gen even more so.

My gripe is that the potency on butcher's block, storm's path, and storm's eye are all above 250+. Specifically butcher's block is 280, storm's path is 250, and storm's eye is 270. Where as halone is 260, and if riot is used its only 230.

If you look at inner beast its exactly the same potency as spirits within, and to me that makes sense. The others I listed above don't make sense, even with war having 5% less in defiance. Overall threat is not a problem, because the values in the end are the same. That can only be achieved once you've done an entire rotation. The issue I'm speaking of is the building of threat. Its really not a large issue, simply just a minor thing that was missed imo.

Warrior had tons of attention, and I wouldn't mind paladin getting there share as well.