"To Improve PvP game balance, the ability Cleric Stance will no longer be usable"

[RiceisNice]

...

Fyce beat me to it, but you're still missing the context of what where I'm getting at. I never said a dps should be able to kill a healer under most circumstances, infact they really shouldn't be able to; If that was the case, healers can't keep up with any outgoing damage by themselves and have absolutely no presence on the field.


You say "take out healing, and the healer will lose". Yes, because they are healers. But this is not the case here, they took out cleric stance. You even mentioned this, a dps would still lose to a healer because they cannot outdps what they can heal back (although then you mentioned getting yourself bombed by a BLM, so...wut?) without some sort of stun or clutch cooldowns. Worse case scenario is that it becomes an exercise in futility for both sides without some sort of outside intervention.

And you now what? I'd be damned upset too when my class gets nerfed, but there's a line where they get nerfed because it breaks the mold for the wrong reasons (healer being able to dps or BLMs suddenly being able to tank like a PLD) or straight up overpowered.

The game shouldn't be balanced around a single class, but it should have a master class either. Nearly everyone can argue that SCH and WHM are some of the most versatile classes in the PvP front because of their ability to sustain themselves, the party and deal damage through cleric stance, while BRD, PLD and BLM become extremely situational because they can only bring one or two perks to the table (harassment, control, burst damage) under very few circumstances (when they themselves are not being harassed, have a party to capitalize on it, etc).

[Hollowed]

K

K so I will say this as simple as I can think of, cause you are just not understanding what I am saying and I am the open minded type so I will assume its on me. Here goes: You say healers were OP because they can heal and are on par with DPS in terms of damage, I say WRONG, healers are not on par with DPS in terms of damage, example 1, 2, and 3 are why. Understand better now? The solo thing was the example, not argument.

[Zyphione]

healers are not on par with DPS in terms of damage

I do not follow your discussion closely but just want point out this statement proven false many time in past when crusade stance still active to be use in PVP. Healer damage become same as DPS on single calculative hit but not overall cumulative hit or as frequent hit.

[Hollowed]

I do not follow your discussion closely but just want point out this statement proven false many time in past when crusade stance still active to be use in PVP. Healer damage become same as DPS on single calculative hit but not overall cumulative hit or as frequent hit.

I would go into detail as to why this is a false statement and give you the numbers to back it up but I can see now that people only see what they want to and even if I give them the math to back it up they would still argue. This debate has lost my interest.

[Zyphione]

I would go into detail as to why this is a false statement and give you the numbers to back it up but I can see now that people only see what they want to and even if I give them the math to back it up they would still argue. This debate has lost my interest.

You do not read I say I just point out statement false, such saying is because I not interested in argue with you.
Provide you capable of know what argue even means.

You do not need to do such thing as past many reply you give, such thought never cross your mind when is basic knowledge such detail is need for discussion in first place. Argue in hypothetical mean you have nothing constructive to contribute in first place.
You make such assumption about me? Then your detail will be similar in value to your attitude you just show. Even if you have interest or not, very safe to say will not be something everyone else has not already read.

Thank you for save trouble being repetitive?
This thread have far too many repeat opinion already.

[Divinemight]

I would go into detail as to why this is a false statement and give you the numbers to back it up but I can see now that people only see what they want to and even if I give them the math to back it up they would still argue. This debate has lost my interest.

Well, the data to show SCH dps potential is already given:



A PvE healer has INT of 222. Ratio of the INT and the spell damage is 1:1. Parser showed 80k damage from dots only. (While healing at the same time)

By use ilvl100 INT accessories you gain 80 INT and another 30 INT from bonus points. You have a total of 322 INT and 10% damage bonus from the Cleric Stance if you are going full DPS. Use number 80k as base parameter. Do a simple calculation and blend in some criteria such as sub dps stats and rune 2 spam. It is possible for SCH to par with Bard's damage.

There is already a raid with 1 warrior and 23 scholars cleared the ST. This is also a strong supporting reference. If you decides to use your last response as your closure to this thread, then it is fine. Otherwise, I am interesting to see if you are able to provide an explanation on your version.

[Hollowed]

If you decides to use your last response as your closure to this thread

So I have to say...You use a JP parse (probably not yours) for a T9 raid, as an example for a SCHs PvP DMG? when the SCH is over twice as low as the lowest DPS which just so happens to be the BRD? (Which is the weakest DPS class in terms of pure damage) The numbers look pretty but 124 dps for a 11min fight is weak, also the WHM healed about twice as much as the SCH so this SCH was not full time healing (overcure was only 14% above the SCH), defiantly DPSing more than heals and that makes 124DPS weak. All that aside though I am more curious to why the SMN has less than the BRD by almost 100. :X
Anyway I am not trying to explain why healer isn't OP in pvp, I give up on trying to reason that with people, just wanted to remark on your post, also I am waiting for the "TANKS ARE OP" thread that should be coming in the next few weeks.

P.S. Please don't say things like "this is also a strong supporting reference" without giving a link and some numbers to go with it, all I read is opinion trying to be masked as data (Not saying you intended to do that but is how I see it at first glance). Also lolST; and I have seen a full WAR + one healer per pt alliance clear it before so.....yeah...7WHM 1 WAR Titan HM....that was fun. All in all though I do appreciate you trying to back up your argument with proof, even if it was faulty, the sign of someone who is fun to talk to and debate with.

[Divinemight]

So I have to say...You use a JP parse (probably not yours) for a T9 raid, as an example for a SCHs PvP DMG? when the SCH is over twice as low as the lowest DPS which just so happens to be the BRD? (Which is the weakest DPS class in terms of pure damage) The numbers look pretty but 124 dps for a 11min fight is weak, also the WHM healed about twice as much as the SCH so this SCH was not full time healing (overcure was only 14% above the SCH), defiantly DPSing more than heals and that makes 124DPS weak. All that aside though I am more curious to why the SMN has less than the BRD by almost 100. :X
Anyway I am not trying to explain why healer isn't OP in pvp, I give up on trying to reason that with people, just wanted to remark on your post, also I am waiting for the "TANKS ARE OP" thread that should be coming in the next few weeks.

P.S. Please don't say things like "this is also a strong supporting reference" without giving a link and some numbers to go with it, all I read is opinion trying to be masked as data (Not saying you intended to do that but is how I see it at first glance). Also lolST; and I have seen a full WAR + one healer per pt alliance clear it before so.....yeah...7WHM 1 WAR Titan HM....that was fun. All in all though I do appreciate you trying to back up your argument with proof, even if it was faulty, the sign of someone who is fun to talk to and debate with.

I used the word "given" because the information is already given. The parser is actually in this thread about few pages ago. The information about one Warrior Schoalr is also given in other discussion thread (with screenshots). It is not my obligation to repeat that information again and again. Try to enter a discussion thread after read first plage and last page is never a good habit. It is very clearly that you didnt read whole thing, otherwise you wont make statement against Riceisnice. He is talking about Oscar but you are trying to fit in with Rotten Tomato.

What did I said when I provided the dps parser? "Scholar's DPS potential" is what i am able to recall for. I am using a parser from a PvE Scholar in order to analyze a Scholar's DPS potential is reasonable and logical. This PvE Scholar is not even trying to DPS, he is main healer and applied dots and he still able to generate the damage number that is close to SMN without any INT accessories.

The scenario is what if Scholar is not just healing and keep up dots and actually trying to dps with INT accessories and actually have put Rune 2 into dps rotation. Also, I havent take into consideration the amount of INT converted from MND by the Cleric Stance yet and the number is already pretty high.

I dont really care what perspective you are coming from nor care about whether Scholar is OP or not anymore. The ball has been thrown, I have made somone to ask the reason of Cleric Stance removal on open discussion letter, I will just wait for the result. My response is only to provide a support reference to counter your statement because your statement remains vague without a solid reference.

You did mentioned that you are able to provide a calcuation, then please do that. Make an alliance to ST and have few SCH actually running as DPS so we can compare. Dont just give us a vague statement like healer cant never par with DPS when there is already evidence to support that SCH can par with DPS.

PS. Please keep in mind that Arcanist is considered as DPS. The major difference between SMN and SCH is only the healing pet vs dps pet, SCH gear has no INT and SCH has healing job actions and SMN has DPS job action.. The based damage potential from the class Arcanist is still there.

[Hollowed]

Opinion

Wo calm the crap down, all I did was just remark on your post and say thanks for not being a clown, don't tell me I was mistaken. I said I wasn't going to try and explain anymore why healer was not OP. I didn't disprove you because I don't want to, also if you are going to counter my statement do it with your own research not use an old parse that has nothing to do with PvP and you cannot read correctly. "Anyway I am not trying to explain why healer isn't OP in pvp" just because you apparently missed this part of my post.

Don't ask for numbers when you cannot even come up with your own, that parse you used wasn't even yours to top off it was a crap parse, (if anything that parse was helping prove me right) then get pissed because I didn't proved numbers, I admitted I don't want to talk about that anymore but you pretend to know what your talking about then attack me. Btw I take back saying you were fun to talk to, you are just as opinionated as every other person in these threads when someone disagrees with them.

[Hollowed]

Math.

Just because you asked so nicely. So 124 DPS is the AVERAGE damage per second over the course of the entire fight which lasted not quite 11 minutes. DoT damage ticks about every 3 seconds give or take, and the GCD on most SCH sets are going to be very close to the 2.5 second recast (most SCHS go for crit and det not SS) also factor in the half second or so it takes for the damage to proc after casting it, for simplicity sake we will just say every 3 seconds. So her average is 124 DPS in a three second span that would be 372 damage per cast, including her DoT ticks. 372 damage per cast, every three seconds, lets say you have 4k HP that will take around 11 to 12 casts to kill you. Now lets talk about this BRD, I would like to point out to you that this class is the WEAKEST DPS in terms of pure damage, due to their support roles.

So our BRD here is 262 DPS, in case you forgot already that is DAMAGE PER SECOND. so 262 is his average, and for simplicity sake we will use 3 seconds again. Meaning this BRD is dishing out 786 damage EACH GCD, that is over twice as much as the SCH is doing each cast. Now lets say just for fun our SCH here is rocking VIT accessories (not even going to factor in how that will lower his/her DPS) and has 5k HP, better yet lets say he is pimping it out and has 6k HP. at 6K HP it would take 8 GCD rotations with this current setup to kill him an average of 24 seconds to this SCH's 36 seconds a full 12 seconds faster than our SCH here.

Now our SCH here also healed about half as much as this WHM so lets just say for simplicity sake again he was 50/50 with heals and DPS (which may not be that far off) take his 262 and it becomes 524 now our SCH is really in man-mode killing you in a solid 8 casts as well right equal with this BRD. Now lets be a little more realistic and our SCH is actually wearing real gear which is what he was doing here because TURN 9. Meaning this SCH won't have 6k HP but only around 3.8-4k, again for simplicity sake lets say 4k. With that damage at that HP a BRD only needs 5-6 casts to kill you, lets say 5 again because I like easy numbers. 5 casts being 15 seconds a full 9 seconds faster than the SCH.

There you go, math.

P.S. This right here is why I told you that your parse was a crap example, using T9 for PvP is stupid but even if this was PvP and I used PvP parse to go with it, my point is still the same. Also, in case you did in fact miss this point, this is an AVERAGE things like crit, misses, etc are all factored in, as well as downtime (boss becoming untargetable, being dead, etc.)

So 262 > 786?