2.0 content progression vs 2.1+

[Prototype909]

The problem is that SE insists on releasing dungeons that are so ridiculously far behind the current iLevel curve that the playerbase has overgeared them before they even release. Even ST (On release) was basically undermined because Hunts invalidated it in terms of gear acquisition, now it's a bit better that the loot has been expanded but I still don't feel the need to run it at this point. In this game most encounters are balanced around the strength of your gear rather than the strength of your abilities, and the ability to avoid certain death mechanics. As long as you are able to survive instances of instant death, you basically win the encounter so long as your DPS is either good/overgeared enough to survive the enrage (Provided one even exists).

Rather than actually continue the dungeon/trial difficulty to exist as a sort of upward trend, they insist on continuing at this baby step pace (Especially with dungeons, their initial misstep with the item level of Ramuh EX and Moggle Mog EX also speaks to this). The reason that things like even Wanderer's Palace and Amdapor, Chimera and Hydra were initially difficult was because at the time the original 2.0 players were doing that content it was literally -impossible- to be overgeared for it, much like it was originally impossible for anyone to overgear for T9 when Second Coil was released. With the availability of easy i90, or even easy i100 at this point releasing dungeons with i70 or i80 loot is just a waste of time. It's literally a waste. Nobody wants to do content like that when even casual players can understand that hunts are a better use of their time which lead to better gear in the short-term. It also doesn't help that SE insists on flooding those dungeons with a bunch of crafting mats instead of gear, so even if you wanted it for vanity you have to struggle for it.

Most everything in 2.0 up to the completion of the Relic + Coil 1 = Very good progresson/balancing
First three EX primals + Leviathan EX = Very good balancing for the time in which they were released, rewards people wanted and challenge that was at the time appropriate
Moggle Mog EX and Initial Ramuh EX= Rewards too low for difficulty of the encounter, I personally don't think Ramuh especially is that bad but at the very least it's a fight with lots of individual responsibility
Every dungeon since 2.0 Amdapor with the exception of Speedflox = Totally ignored except for expert roulette at this point unless it's needed to unlock something at level 50

[Seibah]

There are a number of serious issues with this game's progression to the point where I honestly question how things have gotten this bad. Like most posters in this thread, I agree 2.0 progression was great. Once you reach the end of the story, you still have your relic quest(with actual dungeons and boss battles! Not grind fate/materia/etc crap), HM primals(who at the time were intimidating, especially Titan), Darklight, Myth, and Coil. Even entering Coil was a far off, distant goal, but yet attainable. Having a "middle ground" gear level like Darklight was a great way to advance your character and made myth gear feel like a treat every time you got a piece of it. You had some i70, some i90, and the effort you put in never felt disposable. Going from class/50 gear>darklight>myth/coil gear felt like logical and well paced progression. And don't forget CT! Crystal Tower was great in 2.1, because people DIDN'T just have full i90 for the most part going into 2.1. You can really see how the game's progression has spiraled downhill just by comparing the general usefullness of 2.1 ct gear to 2.3 st gear.

Everything kind of imploded on itself come 2.2. Instead of having two means of non coil progression (Darklight>Myth), we're just given a new tomestone and are basically told to go load up on i100 pieces. For long-time players who by this point probably already had full mythology or coil allagan, it's a bit less exciting to only have one "next step" so to speak, outside of Coil 2, of course. Everyone knows what a disaster the relic quest became by this point too, which is too bad because the first one was quite fun. They threw out challenging boss encounters and (a) dungeon for just fate grinding. This, along with the echo, made the whole relic quest a joke. Yes, content needs to be nerfed as time goes on. Getting your i90 relic should have been made easier. But the next step should have been a quest line that involved fighting ex primals or pharos sirius unnerfed(for an amdapor keep equivalent), not mindlessly grinding fates. Because then any idiot can get animus with zero effort, while most 2.0 players had to work their way up to Zenith after a long road. I'm basically just saying the relic upgrades should have continued to be tied to progression content while making the previous step easier each time, so the Relic actually means something besides "I grind a lot".

Dungeons are another issue people have already addressed. Yes, the items are useless outside of vanity. Yes, these dungeons only exist to grind tomes. ST gear is also useless in the face of hunts, and especially now it's particularly silly to actually spend your weekly roll on ST gear when sands and oils are available.

Coil is also only temporarily useful. i110 has been made a joke in 2.3. If you haven't cleared T9 before 2.4, you might as well have not bothered at all, because EVERYONE will have the same ilevel as you and jump straight to T9 as soon as it's unlocked. All you have to your name is your raid gear and BiS items. If coil is fun for you, then by all means run it, but it's time to accept that hard work means absolutely nothing in XIV because within 3-4 months everyone will have caught up to your ilevel. You have no advantage in new content(besides maybe the one new EX primal), because by the time the next "progression" patch hits, everyone will have the same ilevel as you anyway. There is zero reason to do anything in a game that now hands out free gear to everyone by the boatload, besides, of course, to have fun. And it's great if you do, really.

It's just a shame for those of us who have fun by being rewarded with advantages for our hard work. It's High Allagan Weapons or nothing, baby, because t6-8 will mean nothing to anybody(besides gearing alts/farming with echo) come 2.4.

In summary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=didzxUkrtS0#t=4m18s

[Edli]

And it does, as already said though the problem is that players are taking easy routes to obtaining raiding gear and then facing dungeons with that equipped.

That's not a problem, that's how games work. A player will always find the most efficient way in beating the game, that's what is fun about it. If a game allows the player to easily outgear the biggest part of the game thus making it easy that is the game's fault not the player's fault.

What would you want for players to do, making it difficult artificially? I tried with these new dungeons for some strange reason. Decided to run the new dungeons with my undergeared BLM and equip him eventually with the gear they drop. 2 weeks later I only had a belt and a crapload of crafting mats. Meanwhile I was drowning in myth and didn't know where to spend them. Eventually I realized that that was freaking stupid.

The way these new dungeons were implemented on the last patch was just ridiculous. They make no sense whatsoever. They're made for a playerbase that doesn't really exist.

[Fated]

4 man dungeons are definitely the biggest let down of this game in terms of content. SE really has no idea what to do with them and they have degenerated into company seal fodder, vanity sets and speed bumps on the way to your vendor machine handed out max ilvl gear.

[ChriZirhC]

I feel like the new hm primals should have been just 4man while the extremes should have just became the hard mode. Then once shiva is out THEN they make an extreme version for the 3 new primals.

Im actually just waiting for expansion for them to change their formula on progression. If there's still no changes, sad to say Im quitting this game no matter how much I love it.

[silentwindfr]

one way to solve the trouble about the dungeon, and i did ask it while the beta, it's to put an ilevel sync... like this, no one can overgear a dungeon, you will always be in the right range for the dungeon, giving still some teeth to it.

other point CT and ST must be counted like a dungeon in the progression, i didn't understand why we did get a dungeon with reward i80 when we have CT!!! it was an huge error. CT is one of the content the less runned now, why? because it's long and you drop 4 part for 8 people.

if they had make it like this: 2.2 expert dungeon (i70) >CT (i80)> 2.3 expert dungeon (i90)> ST (i100)> 2.4 expert dungeon (i110)>...
the progression will have been smoother than what we have right now. the dungeon will have keep an interest longer and more important we will have avoid hunt giving i90 stuff and making the dungeon useless.
you still have the token for get more part of armor for be able to catch up faster, and since this content at the 2.4 is not locked people can farm at leisure for get what they need.

another point, i think the upgrade system from the 2.2 (oil and sand) must never come back, it was a huge error to put this like this.
finally, they need to add content that recquire the stuff max outside coil... or the people that do coil will simply be monster that will crush the challenge of the world.

[Asierid]

Snip

So you want to hurt people for gearing up? BRIGHT IDEA.

No. Games like this are about progression. You eventually progress to the point where these dungeons are beneath your gear level and make it a breeze. It is no different than it was in 2.0, where Darklight was the norm and closer to the gear level of the dungeons at the time. Running the same thing still gets boring, whether it is challenging or not. (I.E. AK, WP, CM in 2.0. It gets boring regardless). CT gear, on the other hand, is made for people to get a piece of gear that is better than what they have, yet not better than upgraded token gear. Getting one piece of loot in a lockout week is boring. Now you can choose to get 2, or to upgrade one piece to 110. It offers a choice. MMO's are about "choice".

The problem is lack of dungeons when it comes to variety. There are only a handful of dungeons worth running anymore, taking away stats by cutting ilevels just makes the grind worse than it already is. Want a challenge? Run the dungeons nude. You can "choose" to do that. Don't cut into other people's game when you don't feel challenged enough.

[silentwindfr]

it's not the gears that must allows you to beat the dungeon faster and more easily, but the skill... here i have often seen people overgear simply scrap the tactics for beat content and play with them feet, because the gear was too strong for the dungeon.

that a fact, bring variety will solve nothing, if the dungeon is boring, it's already because it's too easy!

[Volsung]

My big complaint is that they release content, sort of backwards. Releasing the raid for lower gear, AFTER the small party high gear.
Almost relegates CT stuff for off class, or gap filling. (if you havnt already bought it with tomes...) I would still like some horizontal
progression as well. Other types of content with side grade gear, or with comparable other stats that do stuff other than just det,
skspd, crit rate .

[Kaethra]

What do you guys think about this? I know 2.0 had problems, especially with keeping people busy, but this has nothing to do with that... In fact, this would keep people more interested and busy IMO.

2.0's issue for me was it was ONLY AK and WP. They were fun and challenging dungeons back then. They really were. But it was only two. And that is why my friends and I left for a couple of months to play EQ and EQ2. Had 2.0 launched with all the hardmode dungeons we have now, as they are. We probably would have stayed. Now I sort of regret leaving because we missed seeing the hardmode dungeons as they were when they were released. With iLvl 90 gear, they're a breeze.

Now that we've been back for a bit, some of us are a bit disenchanted with the game due to it being too easy. So I hope with 2.4 they introduce some challenging dungeons for us. Stuff like WP and AK were with iLvl 50-55 gear. And maybe a bit harder. But entertaining not overly punishing (no one-hit kill mechanics).