"To Improve PvP game balance, the ability Cleric Stance will no longer be usable"

[Zyphione]

I am surprise that this topic still being discussed.

It has more than been settled already in many threads? What is current point of view that it should not have been remove? This last page posts very confusing.

[Domira]

We know its not a 1v1 game, It's that sometimes we don't have a CHOICE but to try to help ourselves... if a healer is being attacked while they are alone they should be able to defend.
Like I said before... if a healer is lagging behind their group and some DPS gets all excited wanting an easy kill, Healers should be able to do something.. not depend on others to help, it is not likely
others will help because they are greedy.

But this happens to all classes! Anyone can get caught 1v1 and get picked off. To me it boils down to dps healers having a mindset adverse to the archetype. As a supportive archetype it shouldn't even be in ones mind to sit there and try to win a 1v1, but rather use your ability to sustain and remove debuffs to make your way to allies who can kill the target.

People complained about cleric stance for a very simple reason, follow me closely here: Because healers were TANK, HEALER AND DPS rolled into one package. That's it. No one should think healers are suppose to be easy kills. Without a enmity system in place in pvp this would make playing a healer a absolute nightmare. DPS is a problem because they have the already excel at the other two archetypes. That's already one more than what other classes can do.

DRG, MNK, BLM, SMN, BRD: Only are good at dps
PLD: Not good at DPS nor can Tank
MRD ?
WHM, SCH: Excelled at Healing, Tanking and DPS.

How can you not see that as a problem? Try not too look at it through your own personal experience but from a objective perspective. From the perspective of game mechanics healers being able to pull off all three roles make absolutely positively no sense in this game.

[Hailie]

WHM, SCH excelled at Healing, Tanking and DPS.

I see your point and I understand what your saying but at the same time we didnt ask to be tanks we were forced into doing it, as far as dpsing if a healer has free time when no one needs to be healed why not be able to do some dmg..

But this happens to all classes! Anyone can get caught 1v1 and get picked off. To me it boils down to dps healers having a mindset adverse to the archetype. As a supportive archetype it shouldn't even be in ones mind to sit there and try to win a 1v1, but rather use your ability to sustain and remove debuffs to make your way to allies who can kill the target.

There are times when healers are unable to make it to their allies to do this, alot of the time there is more then 1 target. Healers already walk around with a target stamped on our backs...

People just got very upset that we weren't as easy to kill as they expected when FL came out, I just do not agree with SE getting rid of CS in pvp completely.

[Domira]

I see your point and I understand what your saying but at the same time we didnt ask to be tanks we were forced into doing it, as far as dpsing if a healer has free time when no one needs to be healed why not be able to do some dmg..

I will tell you with 100% certainty, you do not want a enmity system in pvp. It has no place in a competitive environment and would cause so many complaints, far more than anyone has seen here. Imagine you healing and suddenly your target is changed to the enemy tank? Then imagine if there were two enemy tanks doing the same thing. Sure you didn't ask to be a tank, but in pvp you should of expected this. Especially if you are a pvp veteran. Healers are usually the primary target in pvp. Because of this they need to be durable.

There are times when healers are unable to make it to their allies to do this, alot of the time there is more then 1 target. Healers already walk around with a target stamped on our backs...

People just got very upset that we weren't as easy to kill as they expected when FL came out, I just do not agree with SE getting rid of CS in pvp completely.

Happens to all classes. As a PLD there are a few times when I'm chased down by multiple people. I sometimes can reach friendlies, sometimes not. So I would say what you are experiencing is normal. There is no difference between healers durability now and before they removed cleric stance. So I find it odd how you keep mentioning easy kill in conjunction with CS since it does not increase your durability. Only your offense. So from this perspective you can still survive the exact same as when you had CS, except it might be higher since a healer will never have CS up. So no healing penalty.

[Gor]

Their number has caused issue on JP servers. While the situation is not as overwhelming on NA servers, but they do have a good percentage.

The game does not balance around few extraordinary players. Extraordinary players are minority.

which is a shame because the NA servers feel more like SE's neglected stepchild and the game quality has gone down for many players considerably because of a few bad apples in JP. i know more than a dozen people who have quit this game and my ls and friendlist is getting shorter and shorter by the month as i no longer are seeing what used to be full time players, that now have not logged on for weeks or even months.

The game always balanced at broad, this is the common practice for all mmorpg games. There is no need to crucify SE for using the same practice.

i'm not crucifying SE for using the same practice. i'm crucifying SE for choosing the most boring, un-innovative and un-creative ways of dealing with pvp issues, which seems to be when in doubt, take it out.
this game could be so much more but SE rather streamline everything and hold us back by spending their time policing players' playstyles rather than just letting the pvp community evolve so it can move up to a higher level of play. the way SE is doing it, pvp is going to be stuck at the same rudimentary and elementary environment for months or even forever. players will never be able to do anything different from the basic abilities their class is expected to do, which is boring and uninteresting and i'm not jus referring to SCH, i'm referring to all classes. it will only hold player interest for so long. that's prolly why they're coming out with 8v8v8 because they know they can't fully police a 72 and 48 man efficiently without people crying a river about something.

right now FL is jus running on the fumes of still being new but after its been out for a while, it'll prolly just turn into another ghost town like WD if JP doesn't come up with something to strike player interest and censoring and butchering classes ain't the way to do it.

[Zyphione]

View

I would not say NA is neglected? PvP is new to game and game is only 1 year old which recover after very big disappointment. Developer can take many suggestion but we do not know what it plan for future patch? Maybe they have idea to work on PvP more but need to follow schedule to release past promise feature first?

In other thread people have tell me that NA player in PvP majority very lazy? This way then they do not use many overpower PvP tactic? JP player usually have many class most game so easier to pick out what is overpower and what is not because sample pool bigger.
As Divine say, if many play SCH and always stance and go alone then something very wrong already. Developer also play PvP on all server? Maybe have been on receive end for people play stance SCH and never die?

I would like to ask for different perspective from you, I am sorry if sound rude by saying this. Please excuse me.
Do you think possible to change stance right now exclusive to PvP as many suggestion been given? We say maybe make healer take 20% more damage if active and also reduce heal to 0% and also increase stance switch time from 5 second to 10 second? Just example.

It sound like entirely new skill in PvP, am I right to say this?
It sound better to just remove unfair advantage stance the way it is now. Can not modify just for PvP because you change whole skill meaning and what skill does. I think if developer can modify as they want, they will not have remove it.
This is just different view.

I am sure many pvper want higher level of play, who do not? It make pvp more fun and better, also make more player want to try. At the moment PvP still new and my belief is maybe they just testing water first, see what is good and what need modifying. Remove some skill, see how player play, then plan more for future? Even I can not say because I am not developer. In many of developer interview, question ask of many thing with controversy in game like make content too hard and etc but developer has said statistic always show otherwise even for region specific?

I do not agree with stance remove if completely remove and never come back, I only agree if in future they use current situation to improve more idea for future. You say before that Blizzard take many years to improve PvP? If play first WoW before expansion, many rogue with AQR and Tier 3 gear can eviscerate damage player for 90% of HP. Maybe here also start out slowly but eventually will become fun for PvP in future?
Too early to tell for now, but we try to enjoy what we can.

In latest live letter broadcast, developer mentioned he will try to improve PvP more from all feedback he seen and maybe improve Wolf Den too because many player neglect it? Only time will tell us how they plan to do, since they understand almost nobody do wolf den. It was mention he will work on it and improve slowly? Gather feedback again after some change then observe again?

[Divinemight]

i'm not crucifying SE for using the same practice. i'm crucifying SE for choosing the most boring, un-innovative and un-creative ways of dealing with pvp issues.

You have touched an interst point that we should discuss about. What is SE (Yoship)'s PvP balance concept? You have played WoW, then you must aware of that long dispute between WoW PvP community and the Ghostcrawler on whether there should be two set of values to distinguish between PvP and PvE. PvE side is demanding a set of separate value in order to prevent them being impact by PvP adjustment.

Ghostcrawler is solid on giving a NO as an answer and pretty much every other MMO is using the same practice. Now we look back at FF14, this is the only MMO I know of that is using two set of values, an unique set of PvP actions. This doesn't happen to all those retro PvP games. We yet have see any complaint from PvE side because of this practice. It is maybe Yoship want keep Cleric Stance to be a PvE only action? Zyphione, do you want to comment on this as well?

[Zyphione]

Comment

The game is different because of system where you have PvP action and PvE action and value not modified to do both thing? I agree.
Stance created and made this way it is because of solo to level or fast dungeon run but when bring it into PvP, become more or less too strong. When introduce PvP to the game, developer make some PvP action and is developer way of not disturbing PvE focus people while try to give PvP to community.
PvP is not unplayable because this system in place.
Player just refuse to play it.

Like I say before, Producer has say he will observe change and work with feedback he can work with, which mean feedback that is good and make sense.
Typing many post of "I don't want to play" is not helping the decision because is not even feedback. Tell him to put back skill is also not feedback. Maybe give him idea of a new skill you make, along with pro and con? That is real feedback. If can outline many situation in PVP where will be not overpower? It is better this way.

I believe SqE only remove skill because skill really can not be help in PvP. It is first skill they remove, other thing is just side-effect. (SMN slow)
Side-effect might be easy to remove than compare to adjusting entire skill itself, every suggestion give by player to lessen stance, if read, change what stance is completely. Only way to "fix" is to remove until further notice because of how many player level SCH to PVP.

Regard to WoW player politics with developer?
Ghostcrawler was use to many year of player saying "I wish you get replaced" or "I have better idea" or "I quit game and nobody will play when change so stupid", his change did not break many class even if he enjoy destroying Paladin. Destruction during longest time was in shadow of Affliction but people make many video and teach other how to play and soon many destruction spec player was seen in battleground. Even during tournament, spectator can find many flaw with team gameplay and tell why one team lose, but never say is because "developer break skill so healer do no damage".
This context comparable to FF14 as many people do not play PvP and blame developer for make them useless but still many player is ok in Frontline? Only reason PvP seem little after change is because many boycott and refuse to adapt.

I mention this in Aetherflow thread. How many people now complain "SCH unplayable because my aetherflow useless and always gone by MNK!" ?

You rarely see healer have time to dps in many game and reason is good. This do not mean healer can not dps but just that it not strong, it was very strong with stance but now become more or less normal.
If WoW player do not believe then they can observe duel between Restoration Druid (healer) and Retribution Paladin (DPS) who currently have Word of Glory (decent healing spell) and Druid that is not Balance (DPS) or Feral (DPS) not expected to do very high damage to self-heal class? Paladin will Glory heal all Druid damage and fight will not end in many case. Then Druid fly away in bird form after tornado and laugh at you.
In FF14 PvP before stance remove? Healer will defeat you then emote on your body, which is not correct.

If many player attacking Druid beside just 1 DPS, Druid might be in danger of being defeated.
This then come down to "player skill".
If many player never interrupt Druid, use wrong skill or use all stun at 100% HP, Druid will laugh and sprint far away then bird form and emote as he fly above you.
If many player manage stun well and focus damage, Druid will be defeated very fast.

This is currently same in FF14 after stance remove.
Am I right to say this?
Healer have return to what they played to be: Healer. They have very high survival ability but not invincible and not a DPS class. Able to DPS with what DPS skill they have but not strong enough to defeat enemy player unless enemy player ambush you alone and choose to let you DoT health away and do not retreat.

For developer to balance player skill and PVP play is not easy because of many people who boycott change, is worse here because PVP community not large. This do not mean such player get what they want by boycott PVP, just mean they are childish gamer who want everything their way instead of adapt to the change developer implement. It is difference between some gamer and other? Not everyone need to be very skill player, just need to work around change and get rid of doomsday theory in order to improve.

Developer way of managing not boring or uninnovative? This change was needed change to revert healer back to original role because MND stat convert made SCH damage over time very similar to SMN. Damage a little lower but maybe by 50 point? and also no fester for high damage.
Still very painful with Ruin 2 spam.

Maybe future patch will have more PvP skill, we do not know. We can only imagine and enjoy what we can until next update with new PvP map? Maybe other thing will happen as well.

[Narukuchan]

I've found that since the removal of Cleric Stance from Frontlines and/or PvP has to be honest made our damage drop significantly especially when using Holy and sure I can see the whole wanting to balance it and all, but honestly there currently isn't any real balance at least from what I have seen. But when you're in Alliance B and having to assist/dps drones and nodes it has made doing that a lot harder in that respect. I mean stone, aero, aero II etc and some cross skills from SMN help yes, as does repose but its still made it just meh.

So I hope they either give us something back to replace the fact we've lost the ability or give us it back. (I do sometimes miss WoW in that respect because PvP in that was just so much fun alas...well time will tell I guess)

And it isn't just me who feels this way a lot of people who play WHM in Frontlines/PvP feel the same.

[NorthernLadMSP]

To me, the main thing that is completely imbalanced about PVP is the fact that EVERY SINGLE ATTACK UNDER THE SUN interrupts all casters. Even the few tools we're given to combat this don't work a lot of the time. Surecast, Swiftcast and Equanimity can all be interrupted, which at times makes them totally useless too.

They need to change this and make it so attacks have a CHANCE at interrupting, not a guaranteed 100% of the time.