Minor WAR changes that I, personally, would love to see.

[Sove92]

Ok? Not like Holmgang will save you from those either. When comparing the two side by side you don't get to say HG is worse because you'll still die to the same things Holmgang would have died from.

Holmgang is inferior to Hallowed Ground when it comes to defense, I don't think anyone has a question there. But if you are using Holmgang and Hallowed Ground solely as a panic button, you are doing it wrong. Both have their own utility purposes as well.

[Raxion]

Holmgang is inferior to Hallowed Ground when it comes to defense, I don't think anyone has a question there. But if you are using Holmgang and Hallowed Ground solely as a panic button, you are doing it wrong. Both have their own utility purposes as well.

The best use for Holmgang atm is to pull a Golem away from the center during phase 2 in T9, or as an insurance policy on the last Dreadnaught in T8. More times than not, by the time you pop Holmgang to react to damage, you still die due to the effect not becoming active until after the animation finishes. That's a problem PLD has with HG as well, but they're at least fortunate enough to have 10 seconds of mitigation, without being rooted in place for the duration.

[Raxion]

sure, would like to have war get changes like that, but also pld would need that AoE enmity that War and increase our damage output for all the rest of content outside t9 when we are not tanking...

Deal! Take it. I have no qualms with PLDs having better AoE enmity generation.

[warren-ragnarok]

just a quick fyi, i dont read every thread, let alone check the forums often, i usually just check the thread and see whats going on...so with that said

i really dont see why some of these changes are needed.

allowing wars to use rampart? warriors are more of a dps tank, able to do damage in comparison to the other tank available, you have a somewhat real dps combo you can use, pld doesnt have this at all. pld was originally designed to be mitigation

fix holmgang? i have to agree with sapphic, longer duration or more hp wont fix the issue if your hp is dropping to that point to begin with

change duration or amount recovered? the first problem is assuming it was supposed to replace a healer, its more of a supplement to what is currently there, not a replacement (kinda like the chocobo system currently)

i do agree they should change with the way berserk worked, like remove pacification when defiance is NOT on, so they can do more damage when they are not in an active tank role

sadly, i have played all the jobs in this game so far, and to be quite fair, as long as you dont have a shitty healer, war is pretty damn good....half these changes just seem unnecessary to me. war can hold hate much easier than a pld, and with the changes they made to inner beast and vengeance, can take damage fairly well (you just need to know when to use your abilities) and with an good healer, wont have much difficulty

and further more, war doesnt need anymore cross class abilities from gladiators till gladiator/paladin gets access to their overpower ability as far as im concerned

[Donjo]

You should explain this part better before someone doesn't understand that DR is this game is multiplicative and not additive attacks you over it.

Sure. Let's start with a simple attack. It's base damage when nothing is done is 1000 damage.

Nothing: 1000 damage.

Let's turn on Shield Oath. This reduces damage by 20%. Alternately, we can say that you're taking 80% damage.

Shield Oath: 1000 x 0.8(SO) = 800 damage.

That was the easy one. Now, let's throw Rampart on too. This also reduces damage by 20%. However, this isn't 20% + 20% = 40%. Again, this is a "take 80% damage" situation.

Shield Oath + Rampart: 1000 x 0.8(SO) x 0.8(R) = 800 x 0.8(R) = 640.

See there? You aren't reducing damage by 40%, it's reduced by 36%. Finally, let's throw Sentinel on there too. This makes you take 60% damage. Additively it would be 20% + 20% + 40% = 80%. Let's see how it really is.

All Three: 1000 x 0.8(SO) x 0.8(R) x 0.6(S) = 800 x 0.8(R) x 0.6(S) = 640 x 0.6(S) = 384.

That is a reduction of 61.6%, so you're taking about 38% damage. Because of the properties of math, it doesn't matter which order this multiplication goes; it'll come out the same.

So, what does this all mean? It means that every cooldown you use is being reduced in effectiveness by any other mitigation currently in effect.

However! All of this is stuff that reduces the amount of damage you take in the end. These do not affect things like Virus, Halone, or Storms Path, which directly work to reduce the base damage of an attack. So, if you put everything together and then throw Storms Path on(-10% monster damage) you'll take 38% of 900 instead of 38% of 1000. Thus, combining both of these methods of reducing that damage number is a good idea.

The only thing I can't explain here is the role of the Defense stat. Could everything be lessened by Defense in the same way everything else affects each other?

[Raxion]

-snip-

WAR is far from a "DPS Tank". If you run a meter, you'll see that an equal-geared WAR and PLD do very close to the same DPS, with the WAR pulling slightly ahead. If WAR did a consistent 20% or so more DPS than a PLD, then WAR's lack of mitigation might make a bit more sense, but they don't come anywhere close to that.

[Donjo]

WAR is far from a "DPS Tank". If you run a meter, you'll see that an equal-geared WAR and PLD do very close to the same DPS, with the WAR pulling slightly ahead. If WAR did a consistent 20% or so more DPS than a PLD, then WAR's lack of mitigation might make a bit more sense, but they don't come anywhere close to that.

Yeah, this. In equal geared situations, if both are in their tanking stance, the WAR will pull ahead, but by less than 10% if I recall correctly. If both are outside of the tank stances, the PLD will actually beat the WAR slightly if Storm's Eye is being applied. So, yeah, they are pretty balanced here.

[Raxion]

WARs have been solo tanking T9 for months now. Youtube it.

Upon searching YouTube, there's only one video of T9 being solo-tanked by a WAR, and that's the one that was linked previously in the thread. I never said it was impossible to tank T9 as a WAR, anything is possible. The fact is, WAR has a much harder time doing it than PLD, and there's really no reason for it.

Just off the top of my head, there's not one encounter in the game that a WAR does better than a PLD, but there are a few fights that WAR is considered the lesser choice. I just don't see why both tank jobs can't be equally viable for every encounter. I love WAR more than any other job in the game. Being forced on to PLD for the harder encounters is just discouraging.

[SpookyGhost]

Upon searching YouTube, there's only one video of T9 being solo-tanked by a WAR, and that's the one that was linked previously in the thread. I never said it was impossible to tank T9 as a WAR, anything is possible. The fact is, WAR has a much harder time doing it than PLD, and there's really no reason for it.

Just off the top of my head, there's not one encounter in the game that a WAR does better than a PLD, but there are a few fights that WAR is considered the lesser choice. I just don't see why both tank jobs can't be equally viable for every encounter. I love WAR more than any other job in the game. Being forced on to PLD for the harder encounters is just discouraging.

You need to patch your client to 2.3, I think you're stuck on 2.0.

[Raxion]

You need to patch your client to 2.3, I think you're stuck on 2.0.

You're so funny. I wish I could be cool like you.