Abolish Gc vs GC vs GC in frontlines.

[Divinemight]

I like this idea a lot. I say make a thread and see if there's enough support here.

Not on this fourm. We dont have the number and JP fourm is taking different approach. Their approach is to stop players horading towards any GC that is on winning wagon. They are preferring GC loyalty and their ideas are focusing on even GC population distribution to be 3:3:3 with 1 being opportunists. Most of their suggestions are about stop one GC being on streak of winning (Malestorm in this case).

[Gor]

Their approach is to stop players horading towards any GC that is on winning wagon. They are preferring GC loyalty and their ideas are focusing on even GC population distribution to be 3:3:3 with 1 being opportunists. Most of their suggestions are about stop one GC being on streak of winning (Malestorm in this case).

LOL WOW!! well, the thing is, i don't even think GC swapping was the problem simply because Maelstrom was winning b2b to begin with which is what drove people over here from the beginning. I was already on Maelstrom before Frontlines came out, and we were winning a whole lot more before people started swapping. THEN we started losing more than usual because the bads thought they could run to Team Maelstronk and get carried, but instead they just dragged us down because the amount of fail was too heavy to even lift. So if anything, the swapping has evened the teams out, at least when it comes to Primal Data center, with the exception of Flames who is getting better but still not on par with Maelstrom and Adder.

in all seriousness though, they can't just stop a GC that's on a winning streak. that just simply isn't possible unless they start match-matching individual players who actually play the bg like its suppose to be played, ie. players who consistently has a high number of occupations, a high number of kills, a high number of damage, etc and then dispersing them evenly among the baddies so that the efforts of the good players just get washed out by the bads. that's the only way i can see them preventing winning streaks on one GC and frankly if SE goes out of their way to group players who actually play the bg with the baddies, then that would be the poorest battleground design of all time.

they just need to build a bridge and get over it that its possible for one GC to constantly win because it simply has more organized, and more serious, players who actually play the bg and play to win, and in some cases even function as a premade, and not players who just derp around the map being more interested in a 1v1 and ignorant at how to play the bg, than actually winning the bg. like yesterday, i was in a 48man and 4 Flame players spent a big chunk of their time,trolling me from Temple to Flame Outpost, trying to kill me while their Outpost was taken by Adders right in front of their faces. that is 1/4 of the Flames team accomplishing absolutely nothing. we won (Maelstrom) while Adders took 2nd and Flames, as always, 3rd as one of their players laughed excessively over my corpse; while i'm thinking to myself, no bro, the joke is on you because you followed ONE irrelevant player across the map for 1 kill in exchange for losing the game in 3rd place. these are the type of trash players that reside on Flames and there is no coding in the world that can decode and fix stupid players.

[NorthernLadMSP]

This happens to me a lot when I'm healing. A bunch of them will chase me all around (normally 3-4 Flames), trying to kill me (which they often do as it's always 4 against 1). They usually end up losing the match. I always exit thinking, yeah you guys are just AMAZING. It took 4 of you constantly stunning me to kill me, and you lost the match. Bravo, you're awesome.

[Divinemight]

in all seriousness though, they can't just stop a GC that's on a winning streak. that just simply isn't possible unless they start match-matching individual players who actually play the bg like its suppose to be played.

It is possible to achiveve that without filter out lessar performed players. They have interesting suggestions and can be categorized into following:

First one is match based. When there is one GC gaining over 250 points advantage, the GC lieutenant will show up and provide GC based buff. For example, it can be a buff on the HP, dammage output, or reduce damamge taken, etc.

Second one is weekly based. Based on the weekly tally result, the 3rd place GC of each server cluster will receive a buff from GC leader. For exmaple, HP increase for Flame, Healing and Regen for Twin Adders and damage increase for Malestorm.

There are many alternative methods to stop a GC from winning streak. It is just matter of which seems more logical. They want this type of resolution also because they really dislike premade group taking advantage on pug group on the Frontline. They strongly beleive in that premade grooup should be fighting against other premade group only.

Also, I am strongly do not agree that Malestorm is winning because they have better players because Malestorm is dominating across all server clusters. I think it has more relate to the Guild location where Malestorm got Marauder (Warrior) and Arcnaist (SMN/Scholar). You dont have to agree with me because this is my own speculation.

[kisada]

What Argyle said is all true. What I find particularly ridiculous is that the new Q/A says this: "However, if we make adjustments to both Frontline and Wolves' Den at the same time, it would become a bit too fragmented and we're concerned that matching might become difficult."

It's not the concurrent running of these two events that would be causing any fragmentation, it's the basic design of frontlines as well as the actual matchmaking system. And the reality is that fragmentation has been happening for quite a while and it's turned into a huge problem. Queues are absolutely awful for frontlines and just horrific for wolves den (3 hour queues on weekends). The big picture is obfuscating the actual reality of what is going on and it's made it very difficult to enjoy pvp anymore.

[Gor]

First one is match based. When there is one GC gaining over 250 points advantage, the GC lieutenant will show up and provide GC based buff. For example, it can be a buff on the HP, dammage output, or reduce damamge taken, etc. Second one is weekly based. Based on the weekly tally result, the 3rd place GC of each server cluster will receive a buff from GC leader. For exmaple, HP increase for Flame, Healing and Regen for Twin Adders and damage increase for Malestorm.
There are many alternative methods to stop a GC from winning streak. It is just matter of which seems more logical.

i think it amazes me more that players are going to such great lengths to make this game flatline faster than it already is. the pvp in this game was already weak to begin with but i stuck with it because like everyone else, i was hoping it would get better and more interesting to play at some point, but reading those suggestions makes me think its all just going to continue to slide downhill. i've never seen a game producer cater to soar losers as much as i've seen in this game. ever. well, Destiny came out a few days ago and i saw the effects of that game in FFXIV on the same day as all the FL matches i got in on 9/9 and 9/10 were all 48 mans all day long (which has never happened before). it was obvious console players dropped this game for Destiny. i only got one 72 man last night. and Warlords comes out in 2 months so baddies and JP players will soon have this game all to themselves anyways so they can all nerf their own game to oblivion and live in their carebear, everyone-gets-a-trophy world to their heart's content.

p.s. i dont think either of their suggestions will work anyways. losers are losers and there is no amount of coding that can increase damage done, damage taken reduction,etc that can make them win. i see they ripped this function from WoW though. there is a similar function in the old Wrath of the Lich King expansion where in the Wintergrasp pvp zone, the faction with less players, whether Horde or Alliance, gets a buff called Tenacity which pretty much made any player on the less populated, often the team that's losing, 1 shot enemy players if the buff stacked high enough. oh the days i would be at a base and get 1-shotted by a Boomkin because his loser buff got stacked so high. ... that zone is a graveyard now that no one even plays anymore for obvious reasons. i really hope that SE ignores those suggestions because i think its more game ethical to let a pvp community evolve on its own rather than interfering with the game play because once they start doing that, they won't stop doing it which will kill the gaming experience for everyone until its just a dead sub-culture of the game. although i don't think the "pvp" (using the term loosely) in this game will completely die out, but will just get overrun with so many baddies that players who are attracted to competitive gameplay, will just get pushed out by frustration and not even want to play anymore.

[Divinemight]

Shorten for the length.

Players are players. Most of players suggestion in fact are just ideas borrowed from other games. We are not that creative in general, those are creative are actully will be a game designer. I dont want to be sound like being pro Japanse, but their FF14 community has been more informative than us in the beginning. Blue Gartr maybe informative, but they are not active on this fourm and they smells heavily with elitism. It doesnt mean this suggestions will go through, but I am giving them credit for attempt to improve the current system rather than destroying it.

I noticed you tends to use term carebear a lot, but I really not sure if this is really the case. Their PvP community may be appeal to be in harmony on the official fourm, but you will see different side on 2ch. Their love and hype for the Frontline has reached to the next level, literally dramas over the Frontline. From players receiving hate messages to getting kick out of FC because a player is not willing to play a WHM, etc.

In regard to the situation you have described, it does not apply to the Flames only. It happens to Malestorm as well. I often taking this into my advantage by kiting Malestrom to attack Flames or vice versa. It has to do with player's mentalty mroe than their real skill. There are people who need to see high kills count on the scoreboard to satsify their self-ego. I bid a lot of Twin Adders are having that mindset as well.

Also, Destiny released on Tuesday. It is a first day after reset and a lot of players are working on their weekly chores such as ST and Coil. Even for a hardcore Frontline players like myself, I would only play few games on Teusday and Wednesday. It is not a good indication. I own a copy of Destiny too but didnt play it until last night after I done everything on FF14. Be honest with you tho, Destiny is only a mutation of Halo and Borderland with Call of Duty for multi. It may be appealing for now, but it wont sustain for too long. All mmos will take a tempory hit everytime a triple A title release, it is not something new.

[samurailargo]

It is sad and disappointing that most games of come to this. it is a balancing act and they are willing to know their faults. yes many people will move to other games with, so called, better pvp, but I dont think people will give up on a game that they have come to love. GCvGCvGC has its own defaults much like WD did but that didnt stop people from having fun or enjoyment. Granted people will move or stay in a GC based on any form of reasoning but Im sure they will address points of lopsided affiliations sooner or later. their current system is fine. they just need to fix it to make it more accessible as we are discussing. I agree that they should have more options, but also not lose the structure they have. Instead of demolishing a system that is more or less working by changing it to 24v24v24 and no affiliation, i would like to see more ideas that expands the gameplay. giving people more incentives to switch to other GC with GC PvP gear and items aimed at peoples gameplay might help.


Personally, I think them adding the option to put your services on loan to another GC would be nice, with restrictions of course. keeping PvP rank and common pvp abilities but if they add specific GC abilities or items, with having them not usable when your on loan and getting wolfs marks obtained by half for frontlines, wouldnt be bad. sacrifice some for playability but gain more for sticking to your guns

idea: Uldah, mainly tank heavy players get GC pvp gear options; Gridania, mage heavy get GC pvp gear options; Maalstrom; DoW non-tank heavy players have more GC pvp gear options. but not limited to those players. to help people pick GC based on PvP play

lets work to a better experience then saying its a bad system. all things can look bad, working to make them better makes them gold.(most of the time)

[tehomegaking]

[QUOTE=Gor;2428059 as all the FL matches i got in on 9/9 and 9/10 were all 48 mans all day long (which has never happened before).[/QUOTE]


Weird that you got so many. I've played 10 matches since reset, and only 2 were 48. I got into a 48 yesterday and withdrew... because retards. But every single game after that was pretty much the same wait time, but all games were 72. I'm wondering how and when it decides to run a 48. Because my freind has been in a 48 while at the same time I'm on a 72.

[Zyphione]

lets work to a better experience

Warlords comes out in 2 months

Players are players.

--->@Gor

November? Gosh that is certainly further away than I expected it to be.. although the PTR is active! Yet the changes are dynamic there so far..

I do agree with you though that people will always complain but that is just the way it is where developers have to choose who to cater to more.

I could see the scenario Gor is picturing but I do not think much about it since I basically categorized this game as an egg that has not hatched yet. The developers in many games tend to do these things that makes the game less competitive, but perhaps PvP here was never meant to be something worth mentioning in terms of the word -competitive-? Many past games have tried to be, yet only a named few are really seen as such. By modifying spells and abilities and what they do or how they are affected, the developers would make the majority of the players happy. If I recall this was one of the common sights of this game? To please the playerbase?

I doubt they would "care for" a small minority of players who want competitive PvP to be frank (while I have used WoW as an example, I will use it here again).

The disparity between a regular 1200 player and a 2500 player is by leaps and bounds for what they believe to be competitive, 1200 players view 1500 as the largest goal but 2500 players view 3k as (im)possible goal. It is difficult to co-exist or reach the happy state for both ends.
Satisfaction is easy to reach, but not happiness.

Rank 40 players here are not different than Rank 10 players, since a 2500 rank 10 player can basically outplay a 1200 rank 40 player. Just by the way they think and way they adapt to situations and I will leave you the decision if not this would make sense to you

I mentioned before that people will adapt to the changes and another poster told me it sets precedence that nerfs should always happen to healers due to bad play.

Yes.
It is an unfortunate truth for games which worry about preserving -the casuals- or -the carebears- as quoted.

I believe FF14 is that type of game and have been labelled a PvE/Grind-intensive game several times, PvP is just there to be there and that it is a trend for MMOs to have PvP.
It was never a trend to cater to competitive players unless you reference League of Legends, where skill and usage of the head actually do matter in some cases and despite how good you are and your champion is, you can still slip up and lose the games.

If FF14 does lift traits off WoW then it would be more of a detriment.

The buffs for GCs will not be a good idea since it is not hard to exploit in this game given the way things are now. The structure of PvP is what makes it hard to balance and I did not personally agree with the removal of aetherflow either to quote an example.

I was always of the belief that people who can not, should not.

..and that the glory that many players seek in the game sometimes should be earned instead of be an entitlement. I would imagine most competitive players think this way, which is why they do as many things as they do and learn as many tricks as they learn. However I repeat again that there is little of either of that in here since PvP gameplay by itself is linear.

I am not saying no player is decent or good but I am saying the line is too thin for consideration that PvP changes can be anything and the game is still playable and will be played by many as long as the rewards attract people by aesthetics or otherwise.

We are still playing even after Aetherflow was destroyed!

------>@Divine

The PvP drama here is pale though even if it escalates to any level, I once played a free to play game where the community was medium and we knew a guy who worked in the navy seals but never seen his face?
Another guy used to berate him often on the forum and laugh at him, make jokes about his parents and other very rude things but made the mistake of telling his home location to a person he thought he could trust, then this navy seals person took a facebook picture of a sniper rifle pointed at that guy who bashes him and he wrote 'look who I found? =)'

The uproar on that picture was really something I did not expect.

I am sure people have worse stories, but this is just how infant the current pvp drama is and it still has many stages it will not reach since there is nothing to be proud about or to brag about in PvP here. I doubt in current day that many -drama wars- can be as bad as certain other things in PvE sometimes such as the Titan Hard Mode problems and Atma grind.

I do not know much on who BlueGatr(?) is or if they have anything to be elitist about but being elitist here is silly in my opinion

I agree with you that the NA population is a minority but unless you make Gor run around in nothing but a birdhat with signboard saying -fight the power and represent-, I think it would be hard to have much more opinions.

I don't believe they will be different either since in my reply to Gor, I said already that the game lacks certain types of players, someone can compare any of this to some of WoWs suggestion threads which are sometimes overdone in my opinion.

---->@Samu

I know a few people who play FF14 and they really like the game, they have about the same opinions about PvP here and how it does not seem like -real pvp- and they are leaving FF14 after Warlords is launched and just play this game as a -filler-? In this case it makes more sense Developers won't cater to these people.

They are part of the percentage that will not help the game because they believe it can not be helped in their favor. I think this is the mindset of most NA players who have left the game for their own reasons.

If the game is not for you, it is not for you.

With your suggestion to half marks and other things, it will create players who say the developers force you to have less fun by reducing marks in exchange for playing with friends, some might say you choose marks or choose friends, some might quote other games give them both without 'dumb rules' like that?
It will be difficult for developers to answer these people without being made a fool of should this suggestion be taken, in my view.

I think having suggestions to do such a thing is not logical and that you should just allow GCs to work hand in hand by calling it what a past poster has stated -joint exercise- which is common even in real world for good reasons.
If people want to talk about lore, the lore can just be simply put as being in preparation for future threats, there is no GC restriction in coil after all.

I doubt anyone is saying the game has bad system.
I am reading it more along the lines of the game taking turns which ultimately do not agree with some people and it can be understood. It is easy for things to sound like nobody enjoys the game, but most of us still play it so the system is not bad.

Just approach.
Even approach can be understood though.

--> I have not proof-read this yet since it is 6:50am here but please forgive any mistakes!