Could we get some "Mainstream" content?

[Zyrusticae]

Savage Coil, per Yoshida, was designed as an experiment if people would want harder content - The problem, however, is it shares lockout with the current progression content (Coil 2) so more are less inclined to even play around with it.

The lockout is not an issue, since the lockout only occurs once you complete the dungeon.

If someone doesn't have the time or commitment needed for coil then that means they fall into the 60%, casual playerbase. This isn't really about what one person or the other defines as being mainstream or not. It's what SE divides them into. Coil was not put in there to cater to 10% of the playerbase. Savage coil was however.

I don't know where you're getting these numbers from, but this is patently incorrect.

For example, using WoW as an example, less than 5% of the playerbase will ever complete normal raids (forget about Heroic Mode - that's for the 1%ers, which is what Savage Mode is the equivalent of). It is completely inarguable that the Coil is intended for the hardcore 10% (maybe not even 10%, more like 5% really) of the playerbase. You can make-believe that it's intended for the mainstream 30% but you're just making stuff up from thin air at that point (as well as ignoring reality).

The truth is simply that there isn't much in the way of content for the "mainstream" 30%, and basically nothing in the way of worthwhile "mainstream" content.

[Khaoticsuccubus]

The lockout is not an issue, since the lockout only occurs once you complete the dungeon.



I don't know where you're getting these numbers from, but this is patently incorrect.

For example, using WoW as an example, less than 5% of the playerbase will ever complete normal raids (forget about Heroic Mode - that's for the 1%ers, which is what Savage Mode is the equivalent of). It is completely inarguable that the Coil is intended for the hardcore 10% (maybe not even 10%, more like 5% really) of the playerbase. You can make-believe that it's intended for the mainstream 30% but you're just making stuff up from thin air at that point (as well as ignoring reality).

The truth is simply that there isn't much in the way of content for the "mainstream" 30%, and basically nothing in the way of worthwhile "mainstream" content.

K first of all, those magic numbers I'm making up are right there in the first post, I'm just reusing them.

Second, coil and ex primals are done on a regular basis by those SE dubs "mainstream". Is the mainstream the majority? No, but neither is it the minority. Your little comparison to wow would have been accurate many years ago. Nowadays that's changed completely. Coil is hard but, its not so hard it locks out everyone but the hardcore.

Players with time regularly attempt and make decent progress in it. Doesn't even matter if they complete it 100% or not, only that the attempt is being made and that progress is happening. This is something the casual base isn't really capable of as much for one reason or another, and something the hardcore base will have already completed months ago. Hence, the "mainstream" base is born.

[Zyrusticae]

First of all, all of those clear parties you're seeing on the PF are STILL the hardcore 10%. Simply being more visible does NOT mean they are more numerous. Furthermore, they are essentially the only type of content besides Hunts that actually necessitates use of the Party Finder in the first place; anything on DF Roulette is easily pugged with randoms (and I can assure you there are hundreds of times more people on the DF than on all the servers' PF combined).

Secondly, the First Coil and the Extreme Primals are obsoleted content. For the purposes of this discussion they are entirely irrelevant. Very few people are going to run First Coil or any EX Primal for the gear. The whole point of this thread is to have content that is still gear-relevant while serving the "mainstream" group in terms of difficulty and engagement.

Thirdly, the players who complete Second Coil within days of release are the ULTRA-HARDCORE 0.1%! They are an extremely small handful, a tiny, tiny fraction of the total population. For the purposes of this discussion they are, again, completely irrelevant. Those are the people Savage Mode was intended for, and I can assure you nowhere NEAR 10% of the population is running Savage Mode.

Finally, there is reason to believe you are suffering from a level of cognitive bias (something that is going to be present in pretty much anyone who's a part of the hardcore segment). Because the "hardcore" are more visible to you, personally, as an individual, you make the fallacious assumption that they are actually more numerous than they really are. This doesn't change the facts, just your perception of them. Again, the number of players engaging with the "hardcore" content is actually a shockingly low proportion of the player base.

[Khaoticsuccubus]

First of all, all of those clear parties you're seeing on the PF are STILL the hardcore 10%. Simply being more visible does NOT mean they are more numerous. Furthermore, they are essentially the only type of content besides Hunts that actually necessitates use of the Party Finder in the first place; anything on DF Roulette is easily pugged with randoms (and I can assure you there are hundreds of times more people on the DF than on all the servers' PF combined).

Secondly, the First Coil and the Extreme Primals are obsoleted content. For the purposes of this discussion they are entirely irrelevant. Very few people are going to run First Coil or any EX Primal for the gear. The whole point of this thread is to have content that is still gear-relevant while serving the "mainstream" group in terms of difficulty and engagement.

Thirdly, the players who complete Second Coil within days of release are the ULTRA-HARDCORE 0.1%! They are an extremely small handful, a tiny, tiny fraction of the total population. For the purposes of this discussion they are, again, completely irrelevant. Those are the people Savage Mode was intended for, and I can assure you nowhere NEAR 10% of the population is running Savage Mode.

Finally, there is reason to believe you are suffering from a level of cognitive bias (something that is going to be present in pretty much anyone who's a part of the hardcore segment). Because the "hardcore" are more visible to you, personally, as an individual, you make the fallacious assumption that they are actually more numerous than they really are. This doesn't change the facts, just your perception of them. Again, the number of players engaging with the "hardcore" content is actually a shockingly low proportion of the player base.

Lol, you don't seem to be comprehending the basic issue here in the slightest. Square, the peoples in charge of this game, of whom this thread started because of, sections the playerbase off into 3 groups. Three, not two, not four, Three groups only. Hardcore, mainstream, casual. That's it. From THEIR standpoint, coil (and I'm talking current coil here) as well as extreme primals (while ex primals can be pugged it's not often a pug group actually succeeds and therefore are NOT easily pugged, especially current ex primals) are targeted towards the mainstream group.

The hardcore (again from SE's pov) have savage coil targeted towards them. If they choose to burn through content within a week YoshiP specifically said it was okay for them to play another game and come back later when more content was added. Finally, the casual playerbase (those that make up the vast majority of the playerbase) has everything else for the most part (yes old coil included).

PS: I'm casual btw. Never stepped foot in any current coil and don't care to. I don't even do speedruns or hunts to gear myself any. I haven't looked in party finder in forever since I don't use it (I'd rather let duty finder put me in a group). CT, Daily roulettes, leveling, story, chocobo dyeing, new hairstyles, glamours, and emotes are what concern me the most. I go after cool LOOKING gear so long as I don't find it too much of a pain in the rear. (^_~)v

[Eggnook24]

Are we really trying to use class warfare in this thread? Should I pigeon hole every player I meet by what content they do?

[Iriadysa]

Three groups only. Hardcore, mainstream, casual. That's it. From THEIR standpoint, coil (and I'm talking current coil here) as well as extreme primals (while ex primals can be pugged it's not often a pug group actually succeeds and therefore are NOT easily pugged, especially current ex primals) are targeted towards the mainstream group.

The hardcore (again from SE's pov) have savage coil targeted towards them. If they choose to burn through content within a week YoshiP specifically said it was okay for them to play another game and come back later when more content was added. Finally, the casual playerbase (those that make up the vast majority of the playerbase) has everything else for the most part (yes old coil included).

I must disagree. SCoB cannot be considered mainstream not due to its difficulty but due to one simple fact: lock downs. Coil 2 is behind a one victory per week, which effectively makes it an activity that encourages having a static for it. To have a static you must be able to commit to playing at specific times, which is something not all players can.

I insist, notice how I don't label players by the difficulty of the content they tackle or even amount of time invested. I label them by the accessibility to spend time in the game. I believe the hardcore crowd is that which is able and willing to commit specific time frames of their daily life to play a video game, as opposed to spending such time in a more erratic manner (regardless of the amount spent).

Savage Coil is really just an experiment and a toy for the 1% to play with when they are bored. Hardcore players make more than just the small fraction of people capable of beating Savage (in this case the difficulty is relevant when defining the group of players that does Savage Coil).

To sum it up, I do think SE is targeting 3 + 1 distinct groups of players and, in my view, the middle group is the one most left behind since 2.2 changed the face of end game.

[Fendred]

Regardless of SCoB being for midcore gamers, there aren't a whole lot of people clearing it. Either we have less raiders or people just aren't as enthusiastic about Coil as they once were in previous patches. The boss dancing feels like it keeps getting bumped up every patch. I agree it isn't "hard" once learned, but it's a matter of getting eight people who have all mastered the dance in the same exact fashion so they actually coordinate properly. The lockouts only aggravate the situation by preventing people from practicing the fights.