Is this the road they will continue to take with items?

[Tupsi]

Voidwatch was after Abyssea it offered side grades and some upgrades to abyssea gear at 1% drop rates. WoE was before and after. There were some 75 WoE zones and there were several after Abessa that was for lv90

FFXI progression was Abyssea > Voidwatch => Legion > Seekers Expansion (delve, wildskeepers, skermish)

Voidwatch came just before as it was still 75 cap - That's why I said before and during, because the ones you're thinking of were the nms like Pil and such, which was during and after Abyssea's prime.

The concept of "rest > spawn NM" was before it since it was what dropped some pretty nice 75 cap gear for the time, but it required upgrading those crystals. Specifically they were called 'Voidwalker', but part of the overall 'voidwatch' system that was introduced in parts. due to the development of XIV. Abyssea was pretty much hold over content.

[Colt47]

Heck, pure vertical progression is broken as it is right now in a lot of games. It's one thing to have gear increase in level as someone levels up, but that stage of play in the MMO is like a completely different game from end game. In fact, end game is kind of a mess with how they are handling coil and other content for a lot of reasons, namely they are making timed exclusive content for 90% of the player base for the sake of the 10% that can actually invest the time and find a group to do coil. Then the 10% that can do the coil content have to deal with a lockout system when there is a completely different (and arguably better) system implemented with ST and CT.

If anyone wants an example of how timed exclusive content is a bad idea, go look at the Tomb Raider fiasco that happened recently with Microsoft having the next game an Xbox exclusive and leaving everyone who played the older Tomb Raider game on ps3 in the dust. But that is apparently okay because they get an HD edition of the older one for the PS4, goodie.

Edit: blargh, probably went off topic with that one.

[Taban]

Hi Taban,

You seem to be going to black & white extremes here. First, it was in regards to the idea that it was a full "6 months," which is simply not true. Perhaps for the freak RNG 0.001% / one player that beat the newest end game raid on Day 1, and won their drop, but realistically the Dev Team can estimate and see past data that it'll probably be a few weeks / 1st month before a small group starts getting a drop here or there.

They also have access to their Drop Rate and metrics. They know if there's only a 1:12 chance for something to drop, and factoring in time / clears, etc. what the distribution of rewards is going to be like over time.

Lastly, no one's advocating for your extreme "let gear stagnate" stance. Those of us that are asking for *some* (partial) Horizontal Progression are essentially asking for similar things: We WANT NEW GEAR also. It's just a different angle to approach it.

A quick example: *IF* Stats mattered more, and they made a discernible difference, you could easily have multiple builds for -

(All the same "Item Level")

* Tank VIT Build - Blood Tanking, Highest HP Pool, etc.
* Tank STR Build - Strength that actually made a real difference in Block Damage Reduction, and Damage #'s (which means more Enmity / more Offensive Tank).
* Tank DEX Build - Dexterity that really mattered, that affected Parry Rate, Block Rate and/or Evasion Rate.
* Gear that had "Increased Enmity"
* Gear that had "Enhances Rampart" (making Rampart AOE Shield Buff for anyone in range).
* Maybe a Rare Crafted Set (w/ Very Rare Dungeon Drop Mats) that allowed slotting of Counterattack Materia.

Etc.

Instead with Vertical Progression and Limited Stats that really matter, Yoshi P has painted himself into a corner. He has no choice but to keep increasing Item Level and increase the same boring limited Stats every few months, because there are NO other venues / no other possible meaningful gear.

Horizontal Progression (or even Partial Horizontal Progression) still gives you New Gear and it *could* come out at the same pace as now ("6 months" as you say), except that your current max level set isn't completely eradicated.

What you're missing is the new BIS is going to be the same 1/9 drop chance, so if it takes you 3 months into 2.2 to upgrade your gloves, theoretically it will take you around the same amount of time to upgrade them again in 2.3. The tomestone items muddy this somewhat, but the point remains. I do agree that more options would be nice, I"m not sure why they didn't make ST items upgradeable with sands. That seemed like a perfect time to release more i110 gear to me. That said any horizontal progression is just going to be broken down into BIS lists instantly. If they released a second raid tier with the exact same item level gear most people would aim for the few "real" upgrades, and there would be a lot lower enthusiasm for any raid that didn't drop a new tier of gear. Horizontal progression worked in ffxi because the game was built around multiple sets of gear and swapping them out mid fight. Without that mechanic people won't collect 8 sets of gear because they're still only going to use the "best" one for their job.

[Zephyranthes]

Isn't this the trend for all MMOs?

[Yukiko]

I am still waiting that SE finally answer the question:

Why they skipped skirmish and token system from 1.xx when back then it was there to "fix" the horrible RNG...
I dont see the RNG changed, so why they needed to fix it in 1.xx but in 2.xx its ok?

[Tupsi]

Erm...ARR has so many token systems it's ridiculous at this point.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Horizontal progression worked in ffxi because the game was built around multiple sets of gear and swapping them out mid fight. Without that mechanic people won't collect 8 sets of gear because they're still only going to use the "best" one for their job.

Slight but important correction here: Many Players will go after what they understand as "best" (or at the least "good enough") for there job in what content they are doing. i110 Coil BiS, i80 ilevelsync BiS and uncapped Wolf's Den BiS are all very different. If there was more content that a large number of players needed different gear sets for then a combination Horizontal/Vertical Progression could work.

Currently Coil BiS comes from 3 gear sources: SCoB (High Allagan), Soldiery (Gerolt's Masterworks) and Crafted (i90 pentamelded Accessories).

On the other hand BiS and near-BiS i80 levelsync comes from 10 different sources: BCoB (Allagan), SCoB (High Allagan), Crafted (i95 Primal Weapons and i90 Armor), EX Primals (Levi, Ramuh and EX primal weapons, Primal Accessories), Ultima HM, New EX dungeons (i80 Divine Armor sets), Labyrinth of the Ancients (CT i80 Armor Sets), Syrcus Tower (CT i100 Armor Sets), Soldiery (Gerolt's Masterworks), and Mythology (AF Reproductions).

If anything new ilevelsync content could make things a bit more horizontal.

[Yukiko]

Erm...ARR has so many token systems it's ridiculous at this point.

I dont see any, you can buy alternative gear - not real tokens!
You have currency but not tokens...

Tokens where to counter the RNG and not to buy "other" stuff
Where can you buy primal weapons? Tell me please!
Wehre can you buy Loot from Dungeons or Coil? Tell me please!

And what about skirmish system? Thats not with Tokens but also counters RNG!

Sidenote: We had RNG back than, but with those systems you could get the weapon you wish for after some trys with bad RNG luck (some does not mean 3 runs)
All SE said was that they could not give 100% loot drop when adding such a system, because they need to add trash into RNG, we had darkmatter that time, expect on garuda with 100% token drop (garuda was one of the most liked primals, wonder why?)
Why do you think no one likes to help others any more? Because they farm and farm and farm untill they cant see the content any more - seen many players falling into despair because of that!

[ispano]

Technically Sand/Oil is supposed to be the "token" system for Second Coil, but that's out of the bag now. And the reason they don't use tokens is that while there's still RNG, it's not nearly as bad. Like before in 1.0, you had a small chance of ANYTHING even dropping in the first place, much less the item you wanted. That's why they had the tokens for the primals. But now with guaranteed drops, even if it's not what you want, there's no real need for it from primals. And as I said before, you have Sand/Oil for coil. But of course, now everyone and their mom gets those by mindlessly zerging hunts, so yeah.

[Shougun]

Erm...ARR has so many token systems it's ridiculous at this point.

I wouldn't care if they had a token for every content lol. Call it the page of fate or something, for certain conditions add a token for a particular content (like rolling for a primal weapon and failing to win).

A page of essence, use some sort of Echo/mother crystal back lore (excuse... ? lol) and each content has its own essence. Essence obtained on failure to obtain and used as a way to ensure players do not get the worst side of what RNG provides (costs set so they are not your main way of obtaining items, you'd like to rely on RNG but when RNG goes sour thank goodness you can have hope.. sort of system). Just have a page or blip of information next to your duty finder.

Percent systems can be incredibly cruel lol. Anyone leveled a crafter or gatherer can see "oh hey 95% success" fails 6 times in a row.. O_o;;