Rogue/Ninja Starting Class?

[Viridiana]

Except lorewise rog and nin didn't exist when traversing Coils 1 and 2 with Alisaie or braving CT or ST together with Cid. Lorewise you can't possibly be rog or nin doing this. That is the line of reasoning she is supporting and its ridiculous. Its that same reasoning people are arguing to lock this class/job behind story, when regardless the story does not change, the story has already happened. Its in the past and you being a rog or nin going through it doesn't change the story that has been told.

Gameplay And Story Segregation

You're missing the point so hard it's making my brain hurt. >_<

You can't just say that the story has already happened and therefor you can be a NIN if you want. From the view of a new character, the story has not happened yet. Unless you want new characters to be completely unable to view the storyline up to this point, which would be silly. Remember, if the story has already happened even for new players

then the Waking Sands has already been destroyed, someone's already defeated Lahabrea, Thancred has already recovered from his possession, Cid already has his memories and airship back. . .Basically the entire main scenario isn't a quest they would do.

Remember, even though these are all things that have already happened for established characters, for new characters they have not. It makes no sense for a new character going through the story to have interactions with these characters based on where they are now as opposed to where they are according to that character's story.

And if they aren't going to do those quests, then why would they get the rewards for them? Alternately, if you're saying they've already done those quests, then they should have the rewards for them. Are you going to give new level 1 characters all the rewards for doing all the main scenario quests up to this point? Or are you going to make them do the quests to get the rewards? If you're not going to give the rewards at all, we won't get any new players/characters. If you give them to level 1 characters, I know how to tank the Savage Might IV market. If you make them work for the rewards, well, we're back to having to do Through the Maelstrom to get NIN training, because that's the only way for Yugiri herself to train the character.

And before you bring up NIN in pre-2.2 dungeons, just give it up. The game already separates dungeon composition from lore, otherwise you could never have 2 WHM in one instance. No one's arguing that NIN should not be allowed in pre-2.2 dungeons except for your strawman. All anyone's saying (that I've seen) is that you should have to complete 2.2 in order to be trained by the NPC introduced in 2.2, or else face a plot hole (or massive, wasteful retconning).

[SDaemon]

Gameplay And Story Segregation

You're missing the point so hard it's making my brain hurt. >_<

You can't just say that the story has already happened and therefor you can be a NIN if you want. From the view of a new character, the story has not happened yet. Unless you want new characters to be completely unable to view the storyline up to this point, which would be silly. Remember, if the story has already happened even for new players

then the Waking Sands has already been destroyed, someone's already defeated Lahabrea, Thancred has already recovered from his possession, Cid already has his memories and airship back. . .Basically the entire main scenario isn't a quest they would do.

Remember, even though these are all things that have already happened for established characters, for new characters they have not. It makes no sense for a new character going through the story to have interactions with these characters based on where they are now as opposed to where they are according to that character's story.

And if they aren't going to do those quests, then why would they get the rewards for them? Alternately, if you're saying they've already done those quests, then they should have the rewards for them. Are you going to give new level 1 characters all the rewards for doing all the main scenario quests up to this point? Or are you going to make them do the quests to get the rewards? If you're not going to give the rewards at all, we won't get any new players/characters. If you give them to level 1 characters, I know how to tank the Savage Might IV market. If you make them work for the rewards, well, we're back to having to do Through the Maelstrom to get NIN training, because that's the only way for Yugiri herself to train the character.

And before you bring up NIN in pre-2.2 dungeons, just give it up. The game already separates dungeon composition from lore, otherwise you could never have 2 WHM in one instance. No one's arguing that NIN should not be allowed in pre-2.2 dungeons except for your strawman. All anyone's saying (that I've seen) is that you should have to complete 2.2 in order to be trained by the NPC introduced in 2.2, or else face a plot hole (or massive, wasteful retconning).

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[ZReport]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Pretty much proves you don't have a good counter argument, lol.

[SDaemon]

Pretty much proves you don't have a good counter argument, lol.

No, it proves that I found it hilarious. But thanks

[ZReport]

Are you aware that much of the post-2.0 game dialog is mutable and that they can make different players see different NPCs when standing in the same place at the same time? Prior to 2.1 many of the guildmaster/job trainer NPCs would act like it it was their first time meeting you during main story quests even if you were 50 in that class. Now in post-2.0, characters with goldsmith unlocked got different dialog when talking to the guildmaster during little ladies day, characters with any DoH unlocked got different dialog when unlocking the Ixali beast tribe quests, the WHM job trainer will comment if you have WHM and talk to him about Lost City. They are likely to use their existing tools here and new characters are likely able to play ROG/NIN through the whole story without changing your continuity. Yugiri can be the Ninja Trainer for characters who have cleared the 2.2 main story and another NPC will likely be the trainer for players who have yet to reach that point in the story.

I know about the modified and updated text dialogue in game. However the dev team is not going to go out of their way to have two separate trainers for the Ninja quest. I mean the bolded line makes absolutely no sense at all. What happens when Yugiri is finally introduced into the player's storyline? Does the previous trainer disappear? Don't confuse slightly modified NPC text lines with them arranging 8+ instances of storylines for every Ninja quest -- you have to consider this game is translated in 4 languages. That's what you are basically saying. Ninja won't be a special snowflake job that has more than one trainer for it's questline.

I think the problem with the opponents to Yugiri being the trainer is that they are formulating nonsensical ideas on how you will learn Ninja arts. As far as we know Yugiri and her crew are the only people who hail from Doma as far as we are concerned. She gave us a line on how she would like to spread her art to Eorzea, implying that it's heretofore it's an art that no one is familiar with. Rogue has a similar art, but it's not the same. How it's going to play out is that Yugiri will be the quest giver, and she will train you off of the basis of Rogue fighting that she's currently learning offscreen, and supplement it with Ninja arts.

No, it proves that I found it hilarious. But thanks

Nah, it's just a wannabe smug response with no elegance at all. However, you can have your laugh/smiles and believe you're right.

[SDaemon]

blah

This from the person that JUST now posted how things are going to play out?

"How it's going to play out is that Yugiri will be the quest giver, and she will train you off of the basis of Rogue fighting that she's currently learning off-screen, and supplement it with Ninja arts."

Sorry, but you have enough smugness to go around

[ZReport]

This from the person that JUST now posted how things are going to play out?

"How it's going to play out is that Yugiri will be the quest giver, and she will train you off of the basis of Rogue fighting that she's currently learning off-screen, and supplement it with Ninja arts."

Sorry, but you have enough smugness to go around

Not really a smug response, it's based on conjecture as everyone else here. However, it's grounded in facts from the questline. It's OK however, keep pretending that Yugiri in a non-element in the art she wishes to teach to the people. What you quoted is how it's going to play out, you don't need to see into the future to see that.

And nah, smugness isn't my MO, but it makes me feel good that you feel intimidated by my responses, despite the fact that other people in this thread are throwing far better arguments at you than mine. I bet you're even waiting on bated breath for this response, lol.

I'll just stop right there, not worth getting in trouble over a speculation thread.

[Giantbane]

It honestly doesn't matter to anyone posting on here really - you're all (so far as I've seen) already lv50 and if you're not through 2.2 story you easily can pass "Through the Maelstrom" by 2.4 and have Ninja introduced in whatever goofy manner you advocate for - it won't hurt your "play-through" narrative.

It will however hurt a new player's narrative.

I think a new player is going to more bothered by having a huge hurdle to unlock ninja than they would be by a limited break in the narrative. And lets be honest, most people won't even notice it unless you point it out. And those that do will take ... what? 5-6 minutes to get over it?

[SDaemon]

Not really a smug response, it's based on conjecture as everyone else here. However, it's grounded in facts from the questline. It's OK however, keep pretending that Yugiri in a non-element in the art she wishes to teach to the people. What you quoted is how it's going to play out, you don't need to see into the future to see that.

And nah, smugness isn't my MO, but it makes me feel good that you feel intimidated by my responses, despite the fact that other people in this thread are throwing far better arguments at your than mine. I bet you're waiting on bated breath for this response, lol.

I'll just stop right there, not worth getting in trouble over a speculation thread.

Lol, nah I'm cool. I don't see the need to get riled up by yours or anyone's mug slinging. but thanks!

I think a new player is going to more bothered by having a huge hurdle to unlock ninja than they would be by a limited break in the narrative. And lets be honest, most people won't even notice it unless you point it out. And those that do will take ... what? 5-6 minutes to get over it?

Especially when they realize that regardless of if they were a ninja or not, the story being told was exactly the same.

[ZReport]

I think a new player is going to more bothered by having a huge hurdle to unlock ninja than they would be by a limited break in the narrative. And lets be honest, most people won't even notice it unless you point it out. And those that do will take ... what? 5-6 minutes to get over it?

I still don't believe it to be a hurdle. It's simply too easy to level a job to 50 and do some quest leg work if it plays out like that. If they want to play Ninja they will get over it and do whatever it takes easily.