Can we just have the Wrath of the Lich King Raiding Scheme?

[Magis]

A lot of the time, these same people will be the ones to sell runs to people to take advantage of the weaklings as best as possible. There is no profit in developing the player base as a whole for these people. There are many even in this thread to admit we have some of the most unskilled players in an MMO, but yeah are against helping provide tools that could further improve this situation. I do not comprehend.

Source? Citation? Proof on the first part? Please pray tell how would an "easy mode" help someone get better? If you need to practice a raid, you have something just for that.... it's called that specific raid.

silentwindfr also stated something quite true. The curve of difficulty is quite steep. There really is no solid foundation to work off of when leveling in dungeons. The pace of lower level dungeons does not accurately build up to something like T5. T5 blows everyone away at first because there's quite literally 0 preparation for it. Not even the previous turns build up to the skill base needed for it. A well designed fight overall but something hard to overcome when you first get there.

The curve of difficulty is not steep. You are doing the same actions that the game taught you in the dungeons and then in T1-T4. Watch markers, do a thing. With the echo buff, all the DPS check parts have been removed so it comes down to basic mechanics. The same way T1-T4 teach you how to do T5, the whole first coil teaches you how to do T6 and so on. It's actually really neat how SE set it up.

silentwindfr
I remember when people were crying about echo being placed in the first levels of coil because of the giant big brother hand it was giving to the people struggling through it. Funny thing is, those same so called experts rarely remove it "for the challenge". It's a large double standard that the high end community always seems to fall in.

Why would people who have cleared T5 be doing T5? They are in T6 doing the current content. However, I and my FC mates do help out people in our FC who need a clear.

silentwindfr
Refusing to help the mainstream members, claiming to be elites, crying when they can't find skilled people for their raids on their servers cause the pool has vanished, a painful cycle.

Maybe Excalibur is different, but PF is full of 2nd Coil parties, not T5 parties... so I dunno who this "mainstream" is.
No one calls themselves elites unless they are world first types of people which hey, they deserve the title.
The only time I am "crying" is when some guy comes into a T6 or T7 clear party, and can't do the most basic of mechanics cause they got carried/bought their clear. And hey! That's ok on the first try, but when you refuse to listen to people much more experienced than you, or keep screwing up because you just can't do basic "jump rope" then make a learning party.

[Krr]

The curve of difficulty is not steep. You are doing the same actions that the game taught you in the dungeons and then in T1-T4. Watch markers, do a thing.

T1-T4, Hard Primals, and 4-man dungeons teach nothing now because the second you walk into these encounters at level 50, you are either overgeared for them or 7 other players are overgeared for them. You definitely don't repeat them afterwards because their loot is now worthless. A new player can literally die to the first attack these bosses throw out and get a clear from 7 other veterans doing a roulette or alt relic runs. Back in 2.1 and maybe 2.2 these encounters were challenging learning experience, but now they teach nothing. This is an extremely unfortunate result of overdoing the 'returning players need to catch up' design methodology. Because returning players log back in, have little or no experience, catch up to another red-hot iron wall when they hadn't even beaten the last one at-level, then quit again.

Maybe Excalibur is different, but PF is full of 2nd Coil parties, not T5 parties... so I dunno who this "mainstream" is.

PF users are actually a minority of the game, and Excalibur is actually considered one of the liveliest servers in the game when it comes to active SCOB pugs. I'm sure if you've actually used PF lately, how repeat failures to clear these fights even in 'farm groups' have resulted in a pretty cold cynicism in randoms toward the attitudes of other players as well. Which is, believe it or not, not the norm, for this game or many MMO's.

[Magis]

T1-T4, Hard Primals, and 4-man dungeons teach nothing now because the second you walk into these encounters at level 50, you are either overgeared for them or 7 other players are overgeared for them. You definitely don't repeat them afterwards because their loot is now worthless. A new player can literally die to the first attack these bosses throw out and get a clear from 7 other veterans doing a roulette or alt relic runs. Back in 2.1 and maybe 2.2 these encounters were challenging learning experience, but now they teach nothing. This is an extremely unfortunate result of overdoing the 'returning players need to catch up' design methodology. Because returning players log back in, have little or no experience, catch up to another red-hot iron wall when they hadn't even beaten the last one at-level, then quit again.

I agree with you 100%, and comes back to my point that constantly nerfing dungeons causes people to just be unprepared for the next set. There was a reason why attunements existed in TBC and Vanilla WoW, they were to block people who could not pass the previous content's difficulty. When coil 2 is nerfed, I expect even more complaining because it's not like things get any easier than T5 and lower.

PF users are actually a minority of the game, and Excalibur is actually considered one of the liveliest servers in the game when it comes to active SCOB pugs. I'm sure if you've actually used PF lately, how repeat failures to clear these fights even in 'farm groups' have resulted in a pretty cold cynicism in randoms toward the attitudes of other players as well. Which is, believe it or not, not the norm, for this game or many MMO's.

Well then I may be a bit biased in that spec then. I've mostly play with my static, however the few runs I pugged depended on the group. If everyone was knew what they were doing and it was just general minor mistakes, people push till a clear or time ran out. If it was obvious that someone just didn't know the fight, it would get negative there. This is in clear parties of course, which people expect you to know the fight at the minimum. Learning parties are pretty chill because people expect failures to happen.

The MMOs I played were FFXI and WoW from vanilla to the end of TBC. The former I didn't get into end game content and the latter required guilds to do raids, so the players sorted that out amongst themselves.

[Havenchild]

Source? Citation? Proof on the first part? Please pray tell how would an "easy mode" help someone get better? If you need to practice a raid, you have something just for that.... it's called that specific raid.

Several MMOs have had various takes on how to bridge the gap between the hardcore and mainstream, and many were spot on with the way they tackled the issue.

My most recent MMO, Dungeon Fighter Online for example, end game focused on difficult content while also limiting the amount of times party members could resurrect.
If you had newcomers in that kind of situation, usually it was a incredibly difficult to solo any of those fights. So the game had 4 different difficulties as a norm for all of the in-game dungeons anyway, Normal -> Expert -> Master -> Kings. Different gear also dropped on each level.

What they did was if you ran the dungeon on Normal, you were allowed to ressurect infinitely, free of charge. The difference between the levels was simply mobs hitting harder, and more HP, all the mechanics still intact. This one act immensely boosted the amount of players on the high end who participated on the Kings Road level.

The difference between that MMO and this one is, le gasp, we don't really have anything that can be called a practice mode, not even a decent stepping stone until you reach T5, and by then its not even a stepping stone its a 2-story building climb.

The curve of difficulty is not steep. You are doing the same actions that the game taught you in the dungeons and then in T1-T4. Watch markers, do a thing. With the echo buff, all the DPS check parts have been removed so it comes down to basic mechanics. The same way T1-T4 teach you how to do T5, the whole first coil teaches you how to do T6 and so on. It's actually really neat how SE set it up.

We are going to have to disagree here.

T1, emphasizes the same thing you already know. See AoE marker? Dodge.

T2? Enrage takes away everything from that fight. T2 actually teaches you more about T7, of multiple full map scenarios happening at the same time.

T3? Nothing.

T4? Largely this is what Echo effected the most. This is a rush down instance, with simply the mechanic being, winning before the next drop. At one point in time you had to make sure you had an optimal DPS rotation to overcome this trial simply because people weren't over gearing the hell out of it. Factor in Echo? This is not even worth talking about anymore. Not that it taught much anyway, there's no insta-kill mechanics.

T5? No AoE markers whatsoever. Not even warnings for something like the Lava Plumes which are shot out instantly and randomly.

Introduced your true first tank one shot mechanic, (unless you count Mountain Buster from Titan HM), Death sentence. The damage difference between the two is quite large.

Show me the instance that shows you even something remotely similar, to Conflaguration + Fireballs, or how to handle them.

Divebombs? You can see it in ST for the first time now, however they don't even function fundamentally the same and ones LARGELY more unforgiving then the other. (I've also yet to see someone marked with a Divebomb in ST get to dodge it.)

Aetheric Profusion + Neurolink - No instance has something similar up till now, unless you count something like Garuda EX and Spiny, and guess what you can do coil without touching EX primals.

Dreadknights + Twisters, again, two one shot mechanics going off at the same time, not to mention Death Sentence. No other instance up till now has this many deadly mechanics at once.

The difficulty jump from T1-T4 to T5 is way higher then many vets seem to think nowadays. However, its demonstrated by the masses in DF or hell even PF on most servers. It's not the whole first coil, its T5 largely that is the stepping stone for T6-T9 and that difficulty increase between the two, actually makes sense.

Why would people who have cleared T5 be doing T5? They are in T6 doing the current content. However, I and my FC mates do help out people in our FC who need a clear.

To get other gear from it? What else? Plenty of T5 vets run the dungeon continuously to bring there characters up to speed with pre-SCOB BIS. These are the people I'm largely talking about that were so against echo appearing in coil because they felt it made the content too easy and yet when they run it again for their alts, they don't remove the echo because they want a challenge.

Maybe Excalibur is different, but PF is full of 2nd Coil parties, not T5 parties... so I dunno who this "mainstream" is.
No one calls themselves elites unless they are world first types of people which hey, they deserve the title.
The only time I am "crying" is when some guy comes into a T6 or T7 clear party, and can't do the most basic of mechanics cause they got carried/bought their clear. And hey! That's ok on the first try, but when you refuse to listen to people much more experienced than you, or keep screwing up because you just can't do basic "jump rope" then make a learning party.

It's not to demean your comment but your situation is nowhere near defining for other servers. Saying your on a high pop server such as Excalibur or Gilgamesh for examples then imagining this is the norm on many other servers is disenfranchised. Many servers suffer from even PF not being any different from DF.

Perhaps you took my comment a bit more personal then needed. It's mainly targetting those that continuously say such and such isn't needed when it is in fact needed. Perhaps the white cloak over your eyes is a result of your playing on Excalibur, but the situation is better reflected in say, Duty Finder. Go single queue in Duty Finder, I can guarentee you, 90+% of the time you will not come close to a win.

[Magis]

My most recent MMO, Dungeon Fighter Online for example, end game focused on difficult content while also limiting the amount of times party members could resurrect. If you had newcomers in that kind of situation, usually it was a incredibly difficult to solo any of those fights. So the game had 4 different difficulties as a norm for all of the in-game dungeons anyway, Normal -> Expert -> Master -> Kings. Different gear also dropped on each level.

I wouldn't object to different difficulties giving out different gear, however it seems SE only wants to release one set every major patch.

What they did was if you ran the dungeon on Normal, you were allowed to ressurect infinitely, free of charge. The difference between the levels was simply mobs hitting harder, and more HP, all the mechanics still intact. This one act immensely boosted the amount of players on the high end who participated on the Kings Road level.

The difference between that MMO and this one is, le gasp, we don't really have anything that can be called a practice mode, not even a decent stepping stone until you reach T5, and by then its not even a stepping stone its a 2-story building climb.

You are allowed to resurrect infinitely in this game to though too? Heck, it's not like WoW where you had to do a long ghost walk all the way back or XI which would throw you to your home point (iirc, it may have been different for BCNMs can't recall).

People can practice in T5 itself, especially now with echo and basically free i100 gear.

T5? No AoE markers whatsoever. Not even warnings for something like the Lava Plumes which are shot out instantly and randomly.

Introduced your true first tank one shot mechanic, (unless you count Mountain Buster from Titan HM), Death sentence. The damage difference between the two is quite large.

Show me the instance that shows you even something remotely similar, to Conflaguration + Fireballs, or how to handle them.

Divebombs? You can see it in ST for the first time now, however they don't even function fundamentally the same and ones LARGELY more unforgiving then the other. (I've also yet to see someone marked with a Divebomb in ST get to dodge it.)

Aetheric Profusion + Neurolink - No instance has something similar up till now, unless you count something like Garuda EX and Spiny, and guess what you can do coil without touching EX primals.

Dreadknights + Twisters, again, two one shot mechanics going off at the same time, not to mention Death Sentence. No other instance up till now has this many deadly mechanics at once.

The difficulty jump from T1-T4 to T5 is way higher then many vets seem to think nowadays. However, its demonstrated by the masses in DF or hell even PF on most servers. It's not the whole first coil, its T5 largely that is the stepping stone for T6-T9 and that difficulty increase between the two, actually makes sense.

Markers targeting a player were used in previous dungeons, ie: Chimera and Anantaboga (AK's last boss), though they appear as crosshairs iirc. It taught that you could be responsible for doing an action YOURSELF, and have to keep an eye on your current status. The plumes themselves are markers though, it requires the player to pay attention and get out asap.

I don't see how Aetheric Profusion is difficult to do... stand in the neurolink... done.

Hatch is based off of Chimera's and Anantaboga's "ball coming toward you" mechanic again (even gives you a marker!), but instead of just running from the party, you must stand in the neurolink.

Dreadknights are just DPS checks with a instant KO punishment, which trials are full of. Twisters is the only "new" mechanic not seen in previous dungeons (I think), but it isn't a difficult one to learn. It just takes paying attention to the cast bar.

While the moves put interesting twists, most are still based on something a player has seen before. Most of them can be boiled down to "something appears, be it marker, plume, or cast bar... move.

To get other gear from it? What else? Plenty of T5 vets run the dungeon continuously to bring there characters up to speed with pre-SCOB BIS. These are the people I'm largely talking about that were so against echo appearing in coil because they felt it made the content too easy and yet when they run it again for their alts, they don't remove the echo because they want a challenge.

People will take the easiest route regardless, especially if it was already cleared. Also a lot of the reasons for the above complaints is it goes around the point of T5 -> T6... it's an attunement (ignoring people circumventing that, payed runs and all). It basically is a mark that if you can complete T5, you should be able to attempt and clear T6. Especially because T6's main shtick is basically twisters in reverse. It throws an enemy at you as a distraction (T5 was dreadknight, T6 is hornet), and then sneaks in a cast bar that will instant KO you if you move (or as in T5, don't move). I've seen people who can't do the most basic mechanics of T6 joining clear parties and it ruins everyone's day.

It's not to demean your comment but your situation is nowhere near defining for other servers. Saying your on a high pop server such as Excalibur or Gilgamesh for examples then imagining this is the norm on many other servers is disenfranchised. Many servers suffer from even PF not being any different from DF.

Perhaps you took my comment a bit more personal then needed. It's mainly targetting those that continuously say such and such isn't needed when it is in fact needed. Perhaps the white cloak over your eyes is a result of your playing on Excalibur, but the situation is better reflected in say, Duty Finder. Go single queue in Duty Finder, I can guarentee you, 90+% of the time you will not come close to a win.

The problem is much more deeper rooted in my opinion. It's not the difficulty scaling, it's the battle system itself. Notice I never once mentioned above about what jobs have to do. You are not using your knowledge and skill of your job... you are memorizing a step dance (or as some people say... jump rope) that a certain boss does. Failing this step dance, you most likely wipe the group. There is no way a player can come into a raid, and win it on their skill of their job alone. The battle system isn't sufficiently complex enough to have the player's job be the main focus, so that has to be put on making more complex boss mechanics. This is also why Youtube is so rampant, because until you see what the boss will do, it will most likely instant KO you. However I digress, that's a different topic in itself.