How a slight change could open GLA for a future DPS job

[Argyle_Darkheart]

The important part is to make each DPS unique.

Exactly, and 5 abilities isn't much to work with. For example, WAR and PLD have enitrely different sets of abilities (barring cross-class), and they're still very similar.
Why attach a job to a class that doesn't play to that job's strengths? You'll just end up with an incoherent mess.
If you really want a unique DPS, then it needs its own class and a job that augments its strengths.

As for the Scholar example, yes, it works, but I still think Scholar would've been much better with its own class. However, it works well enough because Arcanist has utility and both healers are designed to be able to do damage. The pet also functions as extra "job abilities," without being convoluted.

By spending hit points, DRK would play a lot different than other DPS.

Maybe, but HP as a resource is fraught with issues (read up on other DRK threads).

Take one class, give it a Shield Oath equivalent and Flash, and it could be a tank right away. Give it Rampart and Sentinel, it could eat a lot of damage. That's only four skills.

This already exists; it's called Paladin. Why bother replicating it?

The "frequent" part is precisely when "someone else" can't. Or when you solo.

Your job would be to DPS. Using the ability weakens your DPS. That's bad design.

[Reynhart]

Is SCH useful ? Yes, and it's all that matters. They did a job with a different role. Like I said, there's no point in doing multiples jobs with the same role from the same class, as they'd play almost the same. And there's not point of having jobs, if we stay at one job for each class.

I've read the DRK thread and it baffles me how something is either "useless" (Too much HP spent, all the burden on healers) or "overpowered" (Too less HP spent, and it's basically "free" damage). People need to learn the concept of "balance"

So, Defiance is uncreative because it adds enmity ? Or the enmity combo from WAR ?

Your job would be to DPS. Using the ability weakens your DPS. That's bad design.

MNK's job is to DPS, yet they have a GCD Silence that cost a lot of TP and deal poor damage (Less than Shield Bash, in fact)
BRD's job is to DPS, yet they have songs that reduce their damage
WHM's job is to heal, yet they have several damage spells, and even a stance to purposely reduce their healing potency.
Are all these "bad design" ?

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Is SCH useful ? Yes, and it's all that matters.

A better question would be: is SCH unique? Yes, it is. Being useful is certainly not all that matters. You, yourself, suggested the need for unique class/jobs.

Like I said, there's no point in doing multiples jobs with the same role from the same class, as they'd play almost the same. And there's not point of having jobs, if we stay at one job for each class.

Jobs are a flavorful way to augment your class. Is that not enough? Other classes may or may not get second jobs, but I, personally, am not that interested in seeing it.

So, Defiance is uncreative because it adds enmity ? Or the enmity combo from WAR ?

Uh...? I don't know what you're getting at here.

Defiance opens up the rest of WAR's kit. Really, I think WAR is the best designed job we have so far.

MNK's job is to DPS, yet they have a GCD Silence that cost a lot of TP and deal poor damage (Less than Shield Bash, in fact)
BRD's job is to DPS, yet they have songs that reduce their damage
WHM's job is to heal, yet they have several damage spells, and even a stance to purposely reduce their healing potency.
Are all these "bad design" ?

I think Arm of the Destroyer is terribly designed, yes.
BRD's songs, while reducing your individual damage, can improve the overall DPS of the raid. They're also functions exclusive to Bard alone. Even so, I'm not sure I like the way songs are designed currently. At least not with BRD defined as a DPS role, such as it is. Many BRDs feel discouraged from singing because of the way its designed. I think the balance is okay though.
Being able to DPS is part of a healer's role (at least for the healers we have so far), so, no, it's not bad design. It's also not a fair comparison. Being able to contribute more DPS is far more valuable than another interrupt option.

[Reynhart]

There's not much ways to tank. PLD and WAR are both based on high enmity modifier and large effective hit points. WAR was even patched to have better damage mitigation, so it's closer now to PLD than it was before.
Thereforce, future tanks will surely have similarities too, wether it's "creative" or not. Their unicity is not based on theses mechanics.

No, it's not enough for PLD to be a "super GLA". They could have just made GLA like PLD. The purpose of "specialised build" if the choice of several builds. Like SCH and SMN are both specialised Arcanists.

Arm of the Destroyer doesn't prevent MNK to be a good DPS. The fact that it can Silence is a nice addition, not something you have to use all the time, thus crippling your DPS. Every job is not "just" its role. PLD has a DPS stance, WAR has DPS buffs, MNK has a healing buff, etc...that's what makes them unique in a party.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

We're getting off-topic.

Answer me this: do you really think it makes sense for GLA to gain a second job that is categorized as a DPS--whose main function is to DPS, when that would invalidate so many of its tanking-focused abilities?
Or do you just, personally, want it, for whatever reason(s) (ease of development, flavor, etc.)?

[VargasVermillion]

This won't and shouldn't happen. As mentioned GLD is far too tank focused, MRD would be more likely to get a dps job since it's skills translate better to a dps but even so they are still more tank focused.

The devs have already mentioned not liking how jobs turned out with SMN/SCH so they have no plans to do it like that anymore although yoshi has mentioned there could be an overhaul to the system at some point but until it's confirmed and we know more about it the addition of jobs by themselves has been shelved.

Besides that wouldn't a new class with a job be more interesting anyway? That means newer abilities and mechanics could be formed, if you just add a job working off an older classes abilities it could become a stale system.

[Reynhart]

I wouldn't have created this topic if I didn't think it make sense. As I said, keeping only one job destroy the purpose of separating classes and job, and giving a second job with the same role is useless. You need to separate what are "enmity focused abilities" and what "survival focused abilities". A DPS like DRK is often riskier than other DPS, so those surviving skills would still be useful. As for "enmity focused abilities", there's not a whole lot of them.

And of course, I'd personnaly want DRK to be added to GLA, because I love this job, it has been related to PLD in the past, and it generally uses Sword, which is GLA's weapon here.

This won't and shouldn't happen. As mentioned GLD is far too tank focused, MRD would be more likely to get a dps job since it's skills translate better to a dps but even so they are still more tank focused.

Arcanist is heavily DPS focused (Only 2 skills for healing) and yet, SCH exists, and is pretty usefull and interesting. As for MRD, if you consider that it can get a second job, you can't deny that to GLA. At least Argyle is fine with "one class, one job"

The devs have already mentioned not liking how jobs turned out with SMN/SCH so they have no plans to do it like that anymore although yoshi has mentioned there could be an overhaul to the system at some point but until it's confirmed and we know more about it the addition of jobs by themselves has been shelved.

The only thing I saw about how SCH is flawed is from people that whine to have bonus point not optimised. Because a little choice is apparently too much for them.

Besides that wouldn't a new class with a job be more interesting anyway? That means newer abilities and mechanics could be formed, if you just add a job working off an older classes abilities it could become a stale system.

Again, if you create a new class for every new job, and keep the ratio 1:1, there's not point in creating both.

[Warrlordd]

It's clear you put thought into this. But it's already been stated that SE was disappointed with how the SCH/SMN branched off the ACN class.

Don't get your hopes up over it happening again. Instead, just hope for a new class that becomes DRK at lvl 30. Instead of revamping a whole class.

I have to wonder where your motivation for wanting this branch comes from anyways. Sounds like you just want a new job you don't have to level.

[Empressia]

We're getting off-topic.

Answer me this: do you really think it makes sense for GLA to gain a second job that is categorized as a DPS--whose main function is to DPS, when that would invalidate so many of its tanking-focused abilities?
Or do you just, personally, want it, for whatever reason(s) (ease of development, flavor, etc.)?

Aw cool then pls enlighten me why DRG cross class skills is more tank-ish compared to MNK or even BRD cross class skills?

[Arkine]

I'd rather they keep all classes and jobs as is, and add a new class every time they want to add a job. This insta-lvl 50 job business is garbage.