Was Coil 2 and Ramuh extreme over tune?

[Krr]

That, already is. It's not much SE fault if people can't grasp simple thing as "DO NOT HIT SPINY" or memorize a simple script fight (Titan does the same things. Over and Over. Over and over...)

It is very much S-E's fault if players are entering difficult fights unprepared by the current curve of difficulty. It is extremely S-E's fault that encounter designs contain binary win/lose mechanics that you can only learn by failing or with foreknowledge. Fights with binary, meta-game conditions like this should never have been integrated into the content flow for casual raiding, as they were clearly never meant to be by their "EXTREME" tag and being designed highly optional sidegrade content for bored coil raiders when they first came out.

Poor game design that ill-prepares a player without external resources isn't a player's fault. This is design 101 crap.

[saeedaisspecial]

It is very much S-E's fault if players are entering difficult fights unprepared by the current curve of difficulty. It is extremely S-E's fault that encounter designs contain binary win/lose mechanics that you can only learn by failing or with foreknowledge. Fights with binary, meta-game conditions like this should never have been integrated into the content flow for casual raiding, as they were clearly never meant to be by their "EXTREME" tag and being designed highly optional sidegrade content for bored coil raiders when they first came out.

Poor game design that ill-prepares a player without external resources isn't a player's fault. This is design 101 crap.

Literally every MMO does this. Maybe this genre isn't for you.
If every fight was designed with the ability for players to win on their first try (which is basically what you're saying) then the game would be incredibly boring, for everyone.
Heaven forbid the game designers want you to die and learn from your mistakes, I mean really. The nerve.

[Krr]

Literally every MMO does this. Maybe this genre isn't for you.
Also, there is a difficulty curve, it just starts at 50, are you going to tell me none of the hard mode primals train you for later content?

I dunno if you've done them lately, but the HM primals teach literally nothing now. The playerbase is so overgeared that you can instantly die to one and the seven other i90s hungry for secondary relics and quick tomestones will carry your dead body to victory. Something more-tuned to the current average item level needs to replace them.

Also: I've been playing this genre for years. I can tell good design from bad. Good MMOs do not inject the kinds of obtuse instant death mechanics as entry level encounters for players trying to get their feet wet with raiding.

Heaven forbid I criticize terrible difficulty curves that make casual raiding inaccessible because a man in Japan thinks everyone needs i90 within a day of reaching 50 to "compete".

[saeedaisspecial]

It is extremely S-E's fault that encounter designs contain binary win/lose mechanics that you can only learn by failing or with foreknowledge. Fights with binary, meta-game conditions like this should never have been integrated into the content flow for casual raiding, as they were clearly never meant to be by their "EXTREME" tag and being designed highly optional sidegrade content for bored coil raiders when they first came out.

Also: I've been playing this genre for years. I can tell good design from bad. Good MMOs do not inject the kinds of obtuse instant death mechanics as entry level encounters for players trying to get their feet wet with raiding.

Which is it, exactly?

[Triston]

Which is it, exactly?

It's both, buddy, re-read. He's chastising the use of OHKO abilities in mainstream, non-top-tier content. This applies to both Titan HM AND Extreme; tHM because it IS entry-level content and having punishing OHKO abilities that you literally cannot recover from (Landslide) there is kind of silly and oppressive to new players.
The Extreme comment is noting how the EX primals have moved out of being optional content into general play, because new players get i90 for free from dungeons, then see that EX fights have requirements of like 70 something, so they queue and get ground into dust in 5 seconds flat.

[Krr]

Which is it, exactly?

Your cherrypicking of quotes belies the flaw I am trying to explain here. The problem is: Both. In their original design, Extreme modes were originally not implemented as entry level fights, nor were they implemented as something meant to be accessible to the majority of the playerbase or the main platter of content. Now, thanks to item level inflation and the fact that hard modes have been trivialized and no more are being added to test the current item level, the majority of content players are being expected to do are extreme modes to have anything noteworthy to do in the game. This is bad, because it means there is no pug content being added that isn't made trivial in one day. This is due to artifical inflation, not natural progression, and destroys content life for casual players.

The problem is that the original design no longer matches the current reality due to ilvl inflation.

[saeedaisspecial]

It's both, buddy, re-read. He's chastising the use of OHKO abilities in mainstream, non-top-tier content. This applies to both Titan HM AND Extreme; tHM because it IS entry-level content and having punishing OHKO abilities that you literally cannot recover from (Landslide) there is kind of silly and oppressive to new players.
The Extreme comment is noting how the EX primals have moved out of being optional content into general play, because new players get i90 for free from dungeons, then see that EX fights have requirements of like 70 something, so they queue and get ground into dust in 5 seconds flat.

But that's the thing again, you're both saying that you shouldn't be punished for screwing up, we've established that players are overgearing content, and you yourself have just posted how overgeared you can get quickly now.
So taking damage isn't a good enough punishment anymore, provided people aren't stacked too tightly Landslides (the only true instakill mechanic in Titan) isn't even an issue at all, it's only 1-2k damage, if that were gone, we'd go back to what i was saying before, content being easily beatable on everyones first attempt, no fun for anyone. The game has been training you to dodge the glowy shit on the floor for 50 levels as well, so the learning curve for dodging has been taught.
As for before when Titan HM was new at launch, well just look at the reward, it was the gate to Coil and your relic, it was specifically designed to be hard. Now it's training wheel content and we've just established that damage isn't enough of a punishment.

Your cherrypicking of quotes belies the flaw I am trying to explain here. The problem is: Both. In their original design, Extreme modes were originally not implemented as entry level fights, nor were they implemented as something meant to be accessible to the majority of the playerbase or the main platter of content. Now, thanks to item level inflation and the fact that hard modes have been trivialized and no more are being added to test the current item level, the majority of content players are being expected to do are extreme modes to have anything noteworthy to do in the game. This is bad, because it means there is no pug content being added that isn't made trivial in one day. This is due to artifical inflation, not natural progression, and destroys content life for casual players.

The problem is that the original design no longer matches the current reality due to ilvl inflation.

So what would your solution be?
Nerf Garuda/Titan/Ifrit EX into oblivion until they're just Garuda/Titan/Ifrit with higher damage? Well, now no one learns a thing anyway, cool.
Increase Garuda/Titan/Ifrit HM damage/HP to be in line with the current average ilvl of the player base? Well now a really fresh player is useless in the fights and no one wants them there because their HP/damage is too low.
There really is no great solution to the problem, short of expecting players to learn the same mechanics everyone else has. I mean, they're new, they shouldn't have to learn or be presented with a modicum of difficulty until they're near the current ilvl cap, right? Your method would just produce an ongoing problem where new players have an easy stroll until they're at/near the ilvl cap and then they're slammed with mechanics that they haven't been trained to handle.
Honestly if anything, it's a problem with the pre-50 learning curve, but I'm sure if there was one before 50, we'd have hundreds of people on the forums complaining it's too hard to get to level 50.

[CGMidlander]

It's both, buddy, re-read. He's chastising the use of OHKO abilities in mainstream, non-top-tier content. This applies to both Titan HM AND Extreme; tHM because it IS entry-level content and having punishing OHKO abilities that you literally cannot recover from (Landslide) there is kind of silly and oppressive to new players.
The Extreme comment is noting how the EX primals have moved out of being optional content into general play, because new players get i90 for free from dungeons, then see that EX fights have requirements of like 70 something, so they queue and get ground into dust in 5 seconds flat.

How are landslides silly?
Giant glowing line. Probably not a good idea to step in those.
Stepped in one? Perhaps you'll know not to step in one next time you see it. (Be it in future HM runs, or EX runs)

This isn't rocket science.

[Krr]

But that's the thing again, you're both saying that you shouldn't be punished for screwing up,

No, I haven't. You are now literally making things up to prove an argument instead of having a discussion, and we are finished here. You are clearly more interested in feeling better than the rest of the playerbase than you are building a functional, enjoyable game for the community with the intent of your statements.

For what it's worth: Non-lethal damage is fully capable of punishing item level 90 players. It's called scaling to expected parameters.

You can tell a game has gone to the dogs when the elite raiding community shouts down everyone else for trying to have engaging content to do.

[Sapphic]

Did you miss the part about PF being dead on my server for these particular fights? It could be the time of day when I make my vain efforts, but on Balmung when I play, PF is full of Hunt parties, Atma parties, and weekly T6-8 clear parties (exp only will queue for T9 to check)

Please enlighten me on how you "que" for turn 9 without clearing turns 6 to 8?