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  1. #171
    Player
    Tashigi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    293
    Character
    Nico Robin
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Blacksmith Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Amberyl View Post
    FFXIV is an MMO, not a single player RPG with a huge, developer-approved toolset and resource release. You're confusing your entitlements. Just because the PC isn't a walled garden like the PS3/4, doesn't mean you have the right to mess with anything you fancy changing.
    Nobody has the right to anything, other than what we're allowed to have by SE, at this time, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise.

    By a general statement I meant that's what I personally support and would like to see in this game. Don't let my example confuse you; I get what a set of EULA rules is. If you want an example of something more relatively close to FFXIV, you're already aware of it: WOW. Where the mods we see available for FFXIV are more commonplace than RTM tells pre-fix.

    I'd like some rules in place, such as what Blizzard did with their LUA coding/etc. But regardless, I'd like modding to exist in this game (Which we all know it will; to what extend, nobody knows, yet).
    The fact that there is people willing to mod ahead of time and people to support it, is quite pleasing to see. Even if currently it falls under Fight Club rules.

    Sadly, a good number of individuals have some misplaced loathe/hate for mods, despite them not understanding even a quarter of what they actually do.
    There is a very large number of examples across this very thread.
    (5)

  2. #172
    Player
    Zakalwe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    431
    Character
    Lapsed Pacifist
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Botanist Lv 51
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaethra View Post
    Sorry to say, but you misread that statement. They said GAME DATA. Which is much different than LOG DATA.
    This is the kind of torturous argumentation that led me to start this thread. While SE has been pretty clear in the past that parsers aren't permitted under the TOS, people keep coming up with ingenious reasoning that this certainly is not what their statements really mean. Now a very official statement is put out that mentions parsers by name, and a few hardy souls hang in there. Again, I'm not saying that parsers are good or bad for the game, as that is a different debate. The fact is that SE has most definitively said they currently violate the TOS.
    (4)
    --------------------------------------------------

    The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.

  3. #173
    Player
    Seibah's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    64
    Character
    Saber Pendragon
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 50
    probably because yoshida himself has said "don't tell anyone about it if you do", instead of "do not do it period". it makes the no parser rule look not very serious when you have that kind of message from the most iconic person in the xiv world.
    (3)

  4. #174
    Player
    Amberyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    香港
    Posts
    334
    Character
    Mizuki Ishikawa
    World
    Belias
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Seibah View Post
    probably because yoshida himself has said "don't tell anyone about it if you do", instead of "do not do it period". it makes the no parser rule look not very serious when you have that kind of message from the most iconic person in the xiv world.
    If you'd have read the thread, you'd know how out of date and superseded that comment is. It's not relevant anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashigi View Post
    I'd like some rules in place, such as what Blizzard did with their LUA coding/etc. But regardless, I'd like modding to exist in this game (Which we all know it will; to what extend, nobody knows, yet).
    I wouldn't say there's any real guarantee of it, tbh. We know they'd like to introduce it to the client, but with the massive disparity between player behaviour on the Japanese servers, and that on the western ones, they're gonna have to be very careful about thinking through the potential abuses it may bring. Look at kick-voting alone, or not having kick-voting. You didn't see Japanese players afk'ing in instances for a cheap ride before it went in, and you don't see Japanese players booting someone for under performing after, either.

    You give the west modding, you open the door to everyone and their mother cheating their way around core game aspects. It'll be a fine line, and stuff like this hunt radar only goes to cast more doubt.
    (2)
    Last edited by Amberyl; 08-10-2014 at 02:23 PM.

  5. #175
    Player
    Assirra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    775
    Character
    M'irau Rhya
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 90
    Wow, some people are super paranoid here.
    "Everyone will get abused if they don't x of dps"
    Do you really believe that? I know mmo standards are low but come on. look at other games and see there is not even close to the abuse some of you are talking about.
    Information is good and i really don't see how you can say otherwise.
    (2)

  6. #176
    Player
    Velox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Sharlayan
    Posts
    2,205
    Character
    Velo'a Nharoz
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    You guys are really over-complicating this whole issue. In the end it boils down to one, simple thing.

    Welcome to my amazing guide on software in FFXIV.

    Code:
    Was the program developed by Square-enix?
                   |              |
                   |              |
                  Yes            No
                   |              |
                   |              |
       safe! -------              ------- ban!
    And now you all know and knowing is half the battle!
    (8)

  7. #177
    Player
    Krr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    741
    Character
    Murah Jhida
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Amberyl View Post
    You give the west modding, you open the door to everyone and their mother cheating their way around core game aspects. It'll be a fine line, and stuff like this hunt radar only goes to cast more doubt.
    This is not how modding APIs work. If what a mod does is considered cheating, the API does not accommodate it through limitations on what functions and data can be accessed. If something is considered cheating down the road after the API is released, an update to the API will break the mods exploiting it in question. This isn't like Skyrim where you can make a mod that lets you press a button to create 99 potions.

    Right now, all forms of modification are illegal because there is no modding API functionality to dictate what is and isn't appropriate or safe use and all mods are third-party software.

    Discussions like the ethicality of parsing are why we need such an API. Whether or not it is within the TOS is clear-cut. Whether or not players can do it, or would be able to do it with an S-E provided modding API, casts question on whether the use of these third-party programs is due to a blanket ban for safety, or a moral condemnation on the activity.
    (1)
    Last edited by Krr; 08-10-2014 at 03:22 PM.

  8. #178
    Player
    Ryel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    610
    Character
    Ryel Altaria
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 80
    This post neither supports nor discourages the use of parsers, but hopefully brings some clarity to the situation.

    Officially, This:

    Quote Originally Posted by Velox View Post
    You guys are really over-complicating this whole issue. In the end it boils down to one, simple thing.

    Welcome to my amazing guide on software in FFXIV.

    Code:
    Was the program developed by Square-enix?
                   |              |
                   |              |
                  Yes            No
                   |              |
                   |              |
       safe! -------              ------- ban!
    And now you all know and knowing is half the battle!
    It really is that simple.

    However in regards to Yoshida's comments on parsers,

    You have to remember there are two sides to Yoshida; The First is the director/producer and head developer for FFXIV:ARR and a representative of Square-Enix and it's policies, The second is longtime player of various MMOs.

    Depending on the interview he often has the opportunity to answer questions from both of these perspectives.

    As far as regarding SE policy, then yes the usage of all forms of parsers / 3rd party applications that are not approved by SE leave you vulnerable for account suspension / termination should you be reported.

    On the other hand, the benefits of parsers in regards to things like personal performance measurement, community gear discussion / BiS guides, optimal ability rotations, higher endgame play, mechanics breakdowns and various other topics are recognized and are not discouraged evidenced by the existence of the majority of the threads posted and still allowed in the job forums.


    The major issues with parsers stem from two points.


    Software and features:

    As it is third party and untested (in house) software, SE cannot speak for any issues that players may encounter when downloading or dealing with any programs that they haven't published and distributed themselves (malware, interference with the game etc) and also that any 3rd party program has the potential to add features that could offer unintended player advantages (possible hacks, data manipulation / exploitation, radar, etc etc.) or cause an imbalance of systems Ps3/Ps4 vs PC.

    Player Harassment:

    The other issue is the obvious potential for player harassment, and while this is very much a YMMV issue the possibility is always going to exist. Which is most likely why an official in-game parser has not been developed by SE as they have already been hesitant to add other systems that provide the potential for player harassment like allowing /tells in dungeons for example.

    TL;DR: As long as parsers are against the ToS if you choose to use them you are doing so at your own risk regardless of what other MMOs are doing or if they offer tangible benefits.
    (4)
    Last edited by Ryel; 08-10-2014 at 03:28 PM.

  9. #179
    Player
    Alistaire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    2,980
    Character
    Your Character
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Blue Mage Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Velox View Post
    You guys are really over-complicating this whole issue. In the end it boils down to one, simple thing.

    Welcome to my amazing guide on software in FFXIV.

    Code:
    Was the program developed by Square-enix?
                   |              |
                   |              |
                  Yes            No
                   |              |
                   |              |
       safe! -------              ------- ban!
    And now you all know and knowing is half the battle!
    Damnit, brb uninstalling windows.
    (3)

  10. #180
    Player
    Kaethra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    1,059
    Character
    Kaethra Tatrinae
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Amberyl View Post
    DRM is absolutely relevant in a debate about usage policy governance. What is GameGuard, but an existence of DRM technics?

    As for facts, there's a simple one that I've constantly stated, which you're choosing to ignore, and doesn't need advancing on. You've broken TOS.
    Sorry, thats not a fact, only -Your- opinion.

    I've not been actioned for it. Nor will I be. It seems SE doesn't agree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zakalwe View Post
    This is the kind of torturous argumentation that led me to start this thread. While SE has been pretty clear in the past that parsers aren't permitted under the TOS, people keep coming up with ingenious reasoning that this certainly is not what their statements really mean. Now a very official statement is put out that mentions parsers by name, and a few hardy souls hang in there. Again, I'm not saying that parsers are good or bad for the game, as that is a different debate. The fact is that SE has most definitively said they currently violate the TOS.
    I'm starting to think there is multiple definitions of Parsers within the community. Would you be more specific which ones you are talking about? When I think of Parsers, I'm thinking of a program that goes through the log files, parses them, and then gives you the results. What I think everyone else is speaking of is a damage meter program that shows it in an overlay or in game (perhaps by sending it to party chat, acting like a WoW addon).

    I've used Parsers in EQ1 and EQ2 and they do not interact with the game while its running nor do they alter game files. They only read the log files, which you can do manually by watching combat chat ingame or opening those .txt logs in notepad. Obviously anything that interacts with the game is wrong. But reading files that are in the same location as the screenshots? If that was 'bannable' so would be posting screenshots like in that modeling thread. Which to me is a bit ridiculous and counter productive to the game.

    To me a screenshot and a text log file are basically two sides of the same coin. They give us a record of what happened ingame. One is a visual representation, the other is a mathematical one. But of course when I do use parsers in MMOs, I use them properly and don't try to abuse other players with them (never seen parsers used in that way, damage meters maybe, but we can't use damage meters here).
    (0)
    Last edited by Kaethra; 08-10-2014 at 04:34 PM.

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