Level cap increase every 1-2 years.

[Shipp]

nothing u just said i can agree with at all shipp exept how they screwed up kirin battles making them 1min kills. outside that your far from truth and it's all opinions.

Please tell me how I'm far from the truth. How many people whined and complained about not having a level cap increase -while- they were grinding for their gear? Tons and tons of people, especially when CoP launched. How many people whined when a level cap increase was sprung upon them out of the blue, AFTER they spent years obtaining their shinies? Near the whole player base. It's not even the same game now, because SE did not implement a correct system. You either have a static high level, or you constantly raise the cap. You do not tell your playerbase it will never happen due to mechanics and then laugh in their faces by throwing 20 levels at them years later, after they spent months of playtime gearing their character and every job.

That -will- happen in XIV if they don't increase caps. It will happen with any MMO. People simply get tired of grinding for side-grades and quit. The people who would quit because of a level increase, which is pretty much a staple of MMOs, are in the minority here. People who want 5+ year old content to be relevant, are in the minority of the MMO world.

This exact same thing happened in WoW during Cata. "Oh boohoo, no more ZG/ZA, but I still run that just for fun Blizzard! Bring it back!" So much backlash that they retuned them to 85 heroics and now the player base is still complaining? Want to know why? They didn't like the instance, they liked the loot, the mounts, to be specific. They didn't care about the lore of the place. They didn't care about the encounters. They cared about mounts and now they whine since they can't solo those mounts anymore, but have to run it as relevant content.

Substitute mounts with AF2, relics, and mats to craft level 70+ endgame gear in XI. Just like in WoW, people didn't do out-dated content because they liked it (the majority I'm talking about), they did it because they got something out of it. The same thing applied to Dyna, sky, and sea (to a lesser extent). By the time I quit in 2007, most people were sick and tired of sky and sea. I was sick of sea the minute I had to traverse the castle with TS mobs. I came back in 2009, and then again in the beginning of 2010. Barely any was doing sky or sea. Only some people were doing them once a blue moon for a person who had to start over and needed something. Same for kings. Why? Because now we have this instanced gear which is essentially an up-grade for many pieces, thus already making sky/sea irrelevant.

Sky had its day. Let's leave 2003-2005ish content die with dignity please. If it's truly about the zone being cool and the bosses being cool, then again, that died with ToAU and 45 second Kirin battles. And again, you could still go back and do them for fun.

The out-gearing content excuse was played in WoW too. The otherside is always greener. Vanilla top tier raid gear was being replaced by greens in outlands. People HATED this, because of the same thing FF players are talking about. All this hard work to be replaced by essentially trash gear over night. What happened over these players whining? WoTLK made sure that if you were in epics by the end of BC (even PvP epics), then you won't have to even think about gear until you're 75+. Hurray, now the playerbase complains because they are tired of looking at the same gear that they have been for months. This is why it was changed back to the "greens replace purples" philosophy in Cata. And no, that's not what is slowly killing WoW, the lack of content coming at a snail's pace (sounds familiar), the overall boring-ness of the expac, and several other factors are why Blizzard has lost 600,000 subs in Cata. Gear, I assure you, is not one of them.

Again, I'm not trying to troll at all, I honestly just want to know what you think I'm wrong about, Weeble. Sure, some things are my opinion. I don't deny that. However, this whole topic boils down to opinions from the player base, and much of my post was the reality of FFXI and not the rose-colored nostalgic memories of people on here.

[danny52844]

Please tell me how I'm far from the truth. How many people whined and complained about not having a level cap increase -while- they were grinding for their gear? Tons and tons of people, especially when CoP launched. How many people whined when a level cap increase was sprung upon them out of the blue, AFTER they spent years obtaining their shinies? Near the whole player base. It's not even the same game now, because SE did not implement a correct system. You either have a static high level, or you constantly raise the cap. You do not tell your playerbase it will never happen due to mechanics and then laugh in their faces by throwing 20 levels at them years later, after they spent months of playtime gearing their character and every job.

That -will- happen in XIV if they don't increase caps. It will happen with any MMO. People simply get tired of grinding for side-grades and quit. The people who would quit because of a level increase, which is pretty much a staple of MMOs, are in the minority here. People who want 5+ year old content to be relevant, are in the minority of the MMO world.

This exact same thing happened in WoW during Cata. "Oh boohoo, no more ZG/ZA, but I still run that just for fun Blizzard! Bring it back!" So much backlash that they retuned them to 85 heroics and now the player base is still complaining? Want to know why? They didn't like the instance, they liked the loot, the mounts, to be specific. They didn't care about the lore of the place. They didn't care about the encounters. They cared about mounts and now they whine since they can't solo those mounts anymore, but have to run it as relevant content.

Substitute mounts with AF2, relics, and mats to craft level 70+ endgame gear in XI. Just like in WoW, people didn't do out-dated content because they liked it (the majority I'm talking about), they did it because they got something out of it. The same thing applied to Dyna, sky, and sea (to a lesser extent). By the time I quit in 2007, most people were sick and tired of sky and sea. I was sick of sea the minute I had to traverse the castle with TS mobs. I came back in 2009, and then again in the beginning of 2010. Barely any was doing sky or sea. Only some people were doing them once a blue moon for a person who had to start over and needed something. Same for kings. Why? Because now we have this instanced gear which is essentially an up-grade for many pieces, thus already making sky/sea irrelevant.

Sky had its day. Let's leave 2003-2005ish content die with dignity please. If it's truly about the zone being cool and the bosses being cool, then again, that died with ToAU and 45 second Kirin battles. And again, you could still go back and do them for fun.

The out-gearing content excuse was played in WoW too. The otherside is always greener. Vanilla top tier raid gear was being replaced by greens in outlands. People HATED this, because of the same thing FF players are talking about. All this hard work to be replaced by essentially trash gear over night. What happened over these players whining? WoTLK made sure that if you were in epics by the end of BC (even PvP epics), then you won't have to even think about gear until you're 75+. Hurray, now the playerbase complains because they are tired of looking at the same gear that they have been for months. This is why it was changed back to the "greens replace purples" philosophy in Cata. And no, that's not what is slowly killing WoW, the lack of content coming at a snail's pace (sounds familiar), the overall boring-ness of the expac, and several other factors are why Blizzard has lost 600,000 subs in Cata. Gear, I assure you, is not one of them.

Again, I'm not trying to troll at all, I honestly just want to know what you think I'm wrong about, Weeble. Sure, some things are my opinion. I don't deny that. However, this whole topic boils down to opinions from the player base, and much of my post was the reality of FFXI and not the rose-colored nostalgic memories of people on here.

plz tell me how is grinding for sidegrades and grinding for upgrades any different?

[Murugan]

plz tell me how is grinding for sidegrades and grinding for upgrades any different?

They aren't except one destroys content for new and old players alike, while the other allows it co-exist.

The people with rose colored glasses here are those who think people actually play low-mid level group/raid content. People grind to whatever the new cap is and skip over it. The result is your game after expansion IS the expansion, and that is just a silly way to design an MMO when it isn't necessary in order to keep people who have been playing all along progressing.

[Shipp]

They aren't except one destroys content for new and old players alike, while the other allows it co-exist.

Please tell me how sky was still relevant up until Abyssea. Please tell me. I promise not to be a total ass when I prove you wrong.

I never saw anyone complaining about a lack of a level increase when CoP came out. None of the people I played with were expecting to see a level cap raise. I'm sure there must have been people making noise about it because the dev team did decide to make the statement that they had no plans to increase the level beyond 75.

If there was a schism in the ffxi community over the issue, I never saw it.

There was, and a rather large one at that. Abyssea just seems like an after-thought to give a dying game's fans what they want. At least to me. I never saw the point in raising the cap in XI, mainly because I had already pimped out my character with what I wanted, I had accomplished everything I wanted to, and I was done and over with the game mid-way through ToAU. Went to a game that didn't require 5+ hours to get normal things done, such as leveling and it still has my interest 5 years later.

FFXI started going downhill in ToAU, after that, it continued down that road. ToAU is what killed Sky and Sea in XI. This is why I stated earlier, the only people who think otherwise are people who didn't start until ToAU or they're looking back with rose-tinted glasses.

[Murugan]

Please tell me how sky was still relevant up until Abyssea. Please tell me. I promise not to be a total ass when I prove you wrong.


There was, and a rather large one at that. Abyssea just seems like an after-thought to give a dying game's fans what they want. At least to me. I never saw the point in raising the cap in XI, mainly because I had already pimped out my character with what I wanted, I had accomplished everything I wanted to, and I was done and over with the game mid-way through ToAU. Went to a game that didn't require 5+ hours to get normal things done, such as leveling and it still has my interest 5 years later.

FFXI started going downhill in ToAU, after that, it continued down that road. ToAU is what killed Sky and Sea in XI. This is why I stated earlier, the only people who think otherwise are people who didn't start until ToAU or they're looking back with rose-tinted glasses.

It wasn't to me, I had been done with for a long time. However for people who still needed much of that gear it could be done. I quit before Abyssea it may have been useless before that, but I seriously doubt all of the HNM's I used to farm were.

Of course you become done with content eventually, but there are better ways to progress characters than making old content completely obsolete not only for the people who already have all its rewards, but for new people who should have the chance to progress through it. That is what raising the level cap arbitrarily does, they should be more creative when adding new content so they can grow (EXPAND) the game with expansions. Expansions should never reduce the amount of overall content players have to play through.

[danny52844]

It wasn't to me, I had been done with for a long time. However for people who still needed much of that gear it could be done. I quit before Abyssea it may have been useless before that, but I seriously doubt all of the HNM's I used to farm were.

Of course you become done with content eventually, but there are better ways to progress characters than making old content completely obsolete not only for the people who already have all its rewards, but for new people who should have the chance to progress through it. That is what raising the level cap arbitrarily does, they should be more creative when adding new content so they can grow (EXPAND) the game with expansions. Expansions should never reduce the amount of overall content players have to play through.

can i like ur comment like 1000 times ._.
but like he siad just because YOUR done with the content doesnt mean it has to become obsolete to every1 it just means it is to u and thats why they add more dungeons on the side instead of just saying o well u didnt join early enough for this to be rewarding just skip it

[Ferth]

Please tell me how sky was still relevant up until Abyssea. Please tell me. I promise not to be a total ass when I prove you wrong.


There was, and a rather large one at that. Abyssea just seems like an after-thought to give a dying game's fans what they want. At least to me. I never saw the point in raising the cap in XI, mainly because I had already pimped out my character with what I wanted, I had accomplished everything I wanted to, and I was done and over with the game mid-way through ToAU. Went to a game that didn't require 5+ hours to get normal things done, such as leveling and it still has my interest 5 years later.

FFXI started going downhill in ToAU, after that, it continued down that road. ToAU is what killed Sky and Sea in XI. This is why I stated earlier, the only people who think otherwise are people who didn't start until ToAU or they're looking back with rose-tinted glasses.

I will agree that ToAU was when the biggest shifts in FFXI started occurring. With the ease of exp gain those areas afforded the general skill level of the population decreased. As to whether it killed sky is up in the air. New players would still need gear from sky, though.

Sea had problems all it's own, I don't think many of them were based on anything beyond it's own poor design. But the gear from limbus was still sought after.

I'm not trying to pretend that in it's entirety FFXI was nothing but sunshine and lemonade. No MMO is.

I think the biggest issue I have with most of your arguments is that you are trying to represent a section of the population you really can't account for.

All of my arguments are based on my personal experience in the game. Things I personally enjoyed doing and aspects of the game that effected me personally.

It's hard to quantify a statement someone makes when they try to speak for other people.

[Shipp]

I will agree that ToAU was when the biggest shifts in FFXI started occurring. With the ease of exp gain those areas afforded the general skill level of the population decreased. As to whether it killed sky is up in the air. New players would still need gear from sky, though.

Sea had problems all it's own, I don't think many of them were based on anything beyond it's own poor design. But the gear from limbus was still sought after.

I'm not trying to pretend that in it's entirety FFXI was nothing but sunshine and lemonade. No MMO is.

I think the biggest issue I have with most of your arguments is that you are trying to represent a section of the population you really can't account for.

All of my arguments are based on my personal experience in the game. Things I personally enjoyed doing and aspects of the game that effected me personally.

It's hard to quantify a statement someone makes when they try to speak for other people.

I'm speaking from my own experience, the numerous LSes I had been in over the years, and the general state of the zones when I would walk down memory lane years later.

Most sky gear was replaced by the time ToAU introduced instances. When that happened, they weren't so much side-grades or situational gear anymore. Most of it was a straight up up-grade. This, in itself, even without a level increase, kills off old content.

People can talk about how it would always be relevant because a new person might need something from there, but there are a few problems with that. When there is better gear already out there, that person doesn't -need- to go there. Even if there isn't better gear, the vast majority of people had finished sky and sea by that time and didn't -want- to go back there, especially just for one person. Getting a group together to help one person in XI was like pulling teeth. This doesn't happen in WoW and other MMOs that increase level cap because people are not forced to go through 5 year old content just to catch up to the current gear curve.

I'm not saying one system is necessarily better (I do believe level increases are better) but that is not what I'm arguing here, and I think that's what is being overlooked.

The whole premise of this argument is that level increases make old content outdated. My argument is old content was already outdated years before the level cap increase. If old content is going to be outdated either way, then why not increase the cap gradually instead of potentially ending up in the mud pit of FFXI where you're static 75 for years, being told it will never change, investing months of /played over the years gearing up, then one day the carpet is pulled from beneath you, causing you to rage and quit soon after? Increasing the level cap seems like a much better solution since you don't have 6 years to get attached to gear, nor 6 years trying to obtain everything you need.

[Murugan]

I'm speaking from my own experience, the numerous LSes I had been in over the years, and the general state of the zones when I would walk down memory lane years later.

Most sky gear was replaced by the time ToAU introduced instances. When that happened, they weren't so much side-grades or situational gear anymore. Most of it was a straight up up-grade. This, in itself, even without a level increase, kills off old content.

People can talk about how it would always be relevant because a new person might need something from there, but there are a few problems with that. When there is better gear already out there, that person doesn't -need- to go there. Even if there isn't better gear, the vast majority of people had finished sky and sea by that time and didn't -want- to go back there, especially just for one person. Getting a group together to help one person in XI was like pulling teeth. This doesn't happen in WoW and other MMOs that increase level cap because people are not forced to go through 5 year old content just to catch up to the current gear curve.

I'm not saying one system is necessarily better (I do believe level increases are better) but that is not what I'm arguing here, and I think that's what is being overlooked.

The whole premise of this argument is that level increases make old content outdated. My argument is old content was already outdated years before the level cap increase. If old content is going to be outdated either way, then why not increase the cap gradually instead of potentially ending up in the mud pit of FFXI where you're static 75 for years, being told it will never change, investing months of /played over the years gearing up, then one day the carpet is pulled from beneath you, causing you to rage and quit soon after? Increasing the level cap seems like a much better solution since you don't have 6 years to get attached to gear, nor 6 years trying to obtain everything you need.

You argument is that a lot of content was old and tired, and easy due to another terrible expansion before Abyssea. Abyssea was the nail in the coffin, but I'll agree that it was downhill long before then in terms of that old content.

You are too focused on FFXI, the lesson from XI is simply that you don't need to do level increase to make new content that people will want to do. They proved that, just because they messed it up on multiple occasions doesn't change that. If they had raised level cap with CoP the game would have started down hill years earlier, instead that was some of the best times many of who played XI remember, playing both new and much old original content and it didn't need a level increase. People could still come into FFXI at CoP's release and enjoy most of what made the game great and enjoyable before CoP while still getting to experience CoP's content. It was a real expansion of the content in game for everyone.

[Shipp]

plz tell me how is grinding for sidegrades and grinding for upgrades any different?

Because when you grind for upgrades, the sky is the limit, and you're actually advancing. You are not advancing by making different gear with nearly the same stats. Eventually, all of those minor +1 to stats on new gear is going to equal +10, which happened in XI. Guess what? You no longer have side-grades, you have upgrades. If you have upgrades, even with a static cap, you're still making old content irrelevant.