Level cap increase every 1-2 years.

[Tigercub]

And things changed. Tough titty. If everything remained the same nobody would get anywhere. There are still many people who enjoy Abyssea.

If I followed that logic and had it my way we'd still only have Super Nintendo and you wouldn't even know an MMO would exist.

I think the point Ferth is making is you don't need to raise the level cap and make old content redundant in order to bring in changes and make things fresh. FFXI proved that and it's a view that can't just be dismissed. This model saw FFXI through the best of her years with the most subscription numbers and player satisfaction. The real debate is which system is better, not why one fails, because neither really do.

Also the Nintendo analogy doesn't work. Levels aren't like hardware. They don't draw clear boundaries on what is possible and what is not.

And Abyssea itself really has nothing to do with this thread or the level cap increase.

[Rjain]

Also the Nintendo analogy doesn't work. Levels aren't like hardware. They don't draw clear boundaries on what is possible and what is not.

You clearly didn't understand it.

The point was, I personally feel some of the best and most memorable moments in gaming happened on the Super Nintendo. But yet, opposed to that, some of my favourite moments in gaming and some of my favourite games came beyond the Super Nintendo, on the N64, Playstation, and Gamecube. While I might be sour that SNES was where it's at, there's still great things to be had even when everything changed and didn't initially seem better.

Edit: And if we stuck with the same thing, we would have never experienced those new moments.

[Tigercub]

You clearly didn't understand it.

The point was, I personally feel some of the best and most memorable moments in gaming happened on the Super Nintendo. But yet, opposed to that, some of my favourite moments in gaming and some of my favourite games came beyond the Super Nintendo, on the N64, Playstation, and Gamecube. While I might be sour that SNES was where it's at, there's still great things to be had even when everything changed and didn't initially seem better.

Edit: And if we stuck with the same thing, we would have never experienced those new moments.

There's a good reason I misunderstood your analogy then. Staying the same level =/= stuck with the same thing, which has been the whole point of our side of the debate.

[Rjain]

There's a good reason I misunderstood your analogy then. Staying the same level =/= stuck with the same thing, which has been the whole point of our side of the debate.

You are stuck with the same thing.

Level generally represents several things. Progress, power, achievements, whatever. So, tell me what the purpose of having one level (let's say 75), where every subsequent expansion gives new dungeons and gear that gets more powerful and allows for even more content? It's like the WoW theory (expansion aside) where you have one set of gear that is great and then a patch comes that adds a new dungeon and you get even greater gear that makes the old gear you worked for seem ridiculous. The difference in strength between 74 and 75 might seem like 74 and 90 in some cases.

But okay let's take the assumption that all new dungeon content and items aren't actually stronger it's just fresh and looks different.

Then what's the point of that besides acquiring said items? Your character doesn't develop anymore. All you receive is in theory useless.

New levels brings new items, new means for character development, new places to explore. And, let's not forget in this case Yoshida said 1-2 years. Abyssea came many years after a solid level cap. 1-2 years is not that much time in comparison, so everything you "worked so hard for" would not be a fraction as bad as in FFXI.

[danny52844]

I don't know if English is not your primary language or if you are just being a lazy typer or what but seriously get a dictionary and learn to type better or don't post at all. That was the most painful thing I've read in over a month.

The only thing I could decipher from that was that you could not understand my argument. My argument is that people spend ridiculous amounts of time on something that in the end doesn't matter anyway, but the premise of playing a game is to enjoy the game and the fondness that comes from playing a game is the experience you've had and the nostalgia that might become present after playing said game. When people complain about fresh new content to keep a game alive and get more people interested, because they've "lost what they've worked so hard for", that's not a very good argument. Things change. It's the premise of life. It's the premise of anything getting remotely better or improved. Enjoy what you have NOW and what you've DONE and try to enjoy what might come in the future rather than freaking out over it because hey guess what that's life.

Again, Super Nintendo argument above. If I had it my way like some of you veteran FFXI players are arguing, you wouldn't even have MMOs. You'd be stuck with SNES.

ur entire arguement is herp derp but if we dont riase the lv cap its impossible to add new stuff
is that srsly what u think?

[Ferth]

Except your character DOES still develop. Since you aren't stuck with one job/class for your one character you are encouraged to develop into new jobs.

your statement that all the new items being revisions of the old and therefore useless is nearly as specious as your argument about how we may as well be stuck playing SNES.

Especially in the face of all you said about the experiences, the friends and the acts of achieving them.

You already made the argument that it was ephemeral so we should just deal with it... but now it's not just ephemeral but useless?

If you are in favor of an ever increasing level cap, that's fine. But if the best you can do to argue for it is to say that everything changes eventually so deal with it, and then to say that the changes are useless anyway we may as well just quit now, then you aren't really defending the point.

[Rjain]

Except your character DOES still develop. Since you aren't stuck with one job/class for your one character you are encouraged to develop into new jobs.

your statement that all the new items being revisions of the old and therefore useless is nearly as specious as your argument about how we may as well be stuck playing SNES.

Especially in the face of all you said about the experiences, the friends and the acts of achieving them.

You already made the argument that it was ephemeral so we should just deal with it... but now it's not just ephemeral but useless?

If you are in favor of an ever increasing level cap, that's fine. But if the best you can do to argue for it is to say that everything changes eventually so deal with it, and then to say that the changes are useless anyway we may as well just quit now, then you aren't really defending the point.

Given the fact that you did not understand any point or analogy that I made I'm just going to stop arguing about it and assume I am subconciously speaking in German or something.

I'll make one final statement in regard to what you said and it strictly having to do with this game. As it currently stands, getting to 50 is not an achievement whatsoever. In fact, I almost feel like getting to 50 on all job classes is probably getting to level cap in early XI on two or three. In regard to that, there is no room to level other classes. I'm hardly even trying half the time and I'm leveling faster than the wind blows, and there are tons of people who already have all 50s. At this rate, if they do what you say and only have a static cap, they'd better make the level 99 and be RIDICULOUSLY difficult to get to, or make the level cap 255 or something extreme if they keep it up. Because this game would be dead in no time if people relied on a static level. That's in its current status (shit).

Regardless, I'd still rather see new content and new levels and new zones over time. I just feel it seems really retarded when you have a whole world, you get to say 75, it's level cap, new content comes and there's a whole bunch of new 75 areas, new content comes and even more 75 areas, and an expansion or two with even more 75 areas. Everything tailored to 1 endgame level just seems completely ridiculous.

[indira]

i rather have content advancement leveling up just another grind to the same thing with bigger numbers.

[Tigercub]

New skills can be introduced without changing the level cap while missions to increase character strength or something like merits can continue character progression. New gear can augment different styles of play within a single class without making old gear redundant or feeling like a 'sidegrade'. Obviously this means old content is still relevant, so the world increases in size, the amount of options you have for gameplay is ever increasing and you aren't forced into participating in that one piece of content you don't like playing (which was my deal with Abyssea, and most of WoW).

You still get your progression. We still get our options and our nice, rich world.
I don't want to see a burning crusade in FFXIV - a huge chunk of content almost completely absent of players apart from those quickly grinding through that level range. Tomes and tomes worth of lore and story, dozens of unique battles; all never to be experienced by those who weren't around when the expansion pack was actually relevant. It's a waste.

[Ferth]

Given the fact that you did not understand any point or analogy that I made I'm just going to stop arguing about it and assume I am subconciously speaking in German or something.

I'll make one final statement in regard to what you said and it strictly having to do with this game. As it currently stands, getting to 50 is not an achievement whatsoever. In fact, I almost feel like getting to 50 on all job classes is probably getting to level cap in early XI on two or three. In regard to that, there is no room to level other classes. I'm hardly even trying half the time and I'm leveling faster than the wind blows, and there are tons of people who already have all 50s. At this rate, if they do what you say and only have a static cap, they'd better make the level 99 and be RIDICULOUSLY difficult to get to, or make the level cap 255 or something extreme if they keep it up. Because this game would be dead in no time if people relied on a static level. That's in its current status (shit).

Regardless, I'd still rather see new content and new levels and new zones over time. I just feel it seems really retarded when you have a whole world, you get to say 75, it's level cap, new content comes and there's a whole bunch of new 75 areas, new content comes and even more 75 areas, and an expansion or two with even more 75 areas. Everything tailored to 1 endgame level just seems completely ridiculous.

I love it. "You're too dumb so I'm not going to argue anymore!"

I understood your analogies rather well... And I recognize that as arguments go, they are smoke and mirrors. All bluster. Blanket statements that sound good but really have no merit.

"Everything is gonna change regardless, so stiff upper lip, bucko!" That argument could be used to argue any point of view on any subject. Its basically argumenting for nihilism. "We're all going to die so nothing we do contains meaning."

But then you tarted the statement up by saying that it's not the quantitative achievement that matters it's the experience you go through to achieve something. Essentially your point was that the gear is a token of the experience it took to get it, so when they raise the level cap though the gear may not be useful anymore you still had the joy of the experience.

Again, that can be used to argue both perspectives.

THEN you go on to comment that with a static level cap nothing truly replaces anything else all the items end up averaging out to the same meta-item so it doesn't matter which item you have, the new or the old, making all the new content in theory useless...

except that theory flies directly in the face of your previous argument about the items being secondary to the experience.

My point was that your opinion is your own, and you are welcome to it. But don't try to argue for it if the best you can do are specious arguments that you yourself are contradicting.