PLD - Skills in numbers - Does anyone have any clue?

[Alphras]

It's not as easy as that. Single target the PLD only uses one Combo, which has a high enmity modifier. The WAR (not Marauder) needs to throw in Combos without an enmity modifier at all (either every second or every third combo). If you begin throwing Fight or Flight, Berserk and Unchained into the equation it will become really complex.

On multiple targets the WAR wins in terms of enmity, but spamming overpowers is very inefficient and he will lose the mitigation from inner beast.

On the other hand comparing enmity generation is pointless, because enmity generation of tanks in this game is ridiculously high.

Edit:
As for your question. There is not really a situation where one or the other would fit better. They can both perform any MT or OT role in the endgame content. Square did a really good job at balancing boths jobs in terms of effectiveness.

[silvach]

Edit:
As for your question. There is not really a situation where one or the other would fit better. They can both perform any MT or OT role in the endgame content. Square did a really good job at balancing boths jobs in terms of effectiveness.

So, PLD and MRD perform similar and fit both for OT and MT. Even when there is more AoE content than single target, PLD is doing similar to MRD? The problem is, that MRD does better in AoE and same when facing 1T. That makes one of them inferior. Ain't it? MLD fits for AoE and 1T MT, PLD fits in 1T MT but his usefulness goes down whenever there is any AoE content.

[Nyalia]

So, PLD and MRD perform similar and fit both for OT and MT. Even when there is more AoE content than single target, PLD is doing similar to MRD? The problem is, that MRD does better in AoE and same when facing 1T. That makes one of them inferior. Ain't it? MLD fits for AoE and 1T MT, PLD fits in 1T MT but his usefulness goes down whenever there is any AoE content.

The point is that PLDs, even if they generate less enmity than a WAR in an AoE situation, still generate enough to keep aggro on all targets. Tanking is most important on bosses, who are often single targets, or small groups. PLD is great on small groups because you can combo one, combo the other, and so on, and you'll have PLENTY of enmity.

All that said, in ST, I find as a PLD, I often lose aggro to similarly geared WARs on single targets (and AoE targets). But, I still generate plenty to MT if no one is fighting with me over it. However, WARs tend to die faster is the healers are busy since they have fewer good CDs than PLD. So, it's all rather balanced, if you take in the whole picture.

In summary, the only real difference that matters between WAR and PLD:
- WAR does more damage (but still nowhere near what a DPS does) and generates a bit more enmity.
- PLD has better mitigation cooldowns (but WAR can tank just fine - Defiance and Shield Oath do the same thing, except PLDs have a ~4% bigger boost to healing) and some interesting (though rarely, if ever, game changing) utility skills (Stone Skin, Tempered Will, Cover).

The only thing I would change about PLD vs WAR is to give PLDs either Esuna as a cross-class skill, or allow PLD's Raise to be used in combat. Too many of the PLD cross class skills are just terrible.

/PLDvsWARdebate

[Alphras]

- PLD has better mitigation cooldowns (but WAR can tank just fine - Defiance and Shield Oath do the same thing, except PLDs have a ~4% bigger boost to healing) and some interesting (though rarely, if ever, game changing) utility skills (Stone Skin, Tempered Will, Cover).

The cooldowns are the same in the end. PLD has stronger ones, but the CDs are way longer. Again the work of good balancing. I think a rework for all the cross skills would be nice.

[Nyalia]

The cooldowns are the same in the end. PLD has stronger ones, but the CDs are way longer. Again the work of good balancing. I think a rework for all the cross skills would be nice.

Huh, I never really looked closely at the WAR mitigation CDs before, I just always thought PLD's were slightly better and WARs had better damage.

Blue = exactly equal, Red = worse than it's "counterpart," Green = better than it's "counterpart."

PLD
1. Rampart: -20% damage taken for 20s, 90s CD
2. Foresight: +20% defence for 20s, 120s CD
3. Sentinel: -40% damage taken for 10s, 180s CD
4. Bulwark: +60% block rate for 15s, 180s CD
5. Awareness: Immune to crits for 25s, 180s CD
6. Convalescence: +30% healing received for 20s, 120s CD
7. Hallowed Ground: Invincible (mostly, a few attacks ignore it) for 10s, 420s CD
8. Ring of Halone: Reduce target strength by 10% forever, no CD

WAR
1. Inner Beast: -20% damage taken for 6s, ~25s/60s dual CD sorta (it's complicated)
2. Foresight: +20% defense for 20s, 90s CD
3. Vengeance: -30% damage taken for 15s, 120s CD
4. Featherfoot: +15% evasion for 15s, 90s CD
5. Awareness: Immune to crits for 20s, 180s CD
6. Convalescence: +20% healing received for 20s, 120s CD
7. Holmgang: Cannot go below 1 hp, 6s duration, 180s CD
8. Storm's Path: Reduce target's damage dealt by 10% forever, no CD
9. Thrill of Battle: 20% heal (defiance bonus hard to calculate for many reasons), 120s CD
10. Second Wind: ? heal, 120s CD

(Note: One of the four cross-class skills for WAR will likely not be taken at all (Awareness?) so Flash and Provoke can both be taken)

Wow, I never realized that Vengeance is 60% better than Sentinel in a long fight with constant damage. Vengeance is an overall 3.75% damage reduction, where Sentinel is an overall 2.22% damage reduction. Sentinel is better though in fights where there are short periods of high damage followed by long periods of low damage, or when your healers are really pressed.

In addition, if my math is right (which it probably isn't), Inner Beast results in a ~5% overall damage reduction (assuming it is used once every 25s and whenever Infuriate is available). Rampart has a 3.33% overall damage reduction.

Also, I'm not sure how damage reduction abilities stack with Shield Oath, so all of my numbers could be total BS if it isn't multiplicative stacking.

I have no idea how to compare Featherfoot to Bulwark, or how to compare Holmgang to Hallowed Ground. My gut tells me that Hallowed Ground and Featherfoot are the better of the pairs.

So, in conclusion, they're pretty equal on CDs after all, though if you factor in WAR's healing... WAR may be better with damage mitigation? That really surprises me.

[Ricon]

I don't follow this at all, I don't lose hate on single targets ever as a pld and I don't lose hate on pulls involving whole whole areas of dungeons like brayflox and so on. The only way to lose hate is to tank poorly, spam out your mp then pull another group or position poorly and miss targets with flash.

On the topic of how much better war is than pld, hallowed ground vs holmgang, bulwark, and self cast stoneskin.

[Ricon]

1. Foresight: -20% damage taken for 20s, 90s CD

Unless defense has gotten crazy high without me noticing Foresight is only about a 5% dmg reduction because it raises defense like feather foot does for evasion. It's really a trash skill if you compare it to the glorious gifts pld gives war. But in the debate of feather foot vs bulwark I have always talked with my FC wars and bulwark is a more or less 27% dmg reduction because I can't of a time I used it and saw an attack not get blocked (magic being the exception of course). My wars and I tend to disagree about feather foot because I see how much I dodge and feel that +15% of dirt is still dirt. I don't know, this is all pointless because pld was so much better than war that SE had to give war pretty much all the things that made pld a pld. Now both tanks are equal and fine.

[Skull_Angel]

snip?

Realistically, PLD should come in slightly ahead or break even with WAR if on equal grounds (no Storm's Eye, or both Storm's Eye/similar gear) because WAR has to rotate in a Storm's combo at least once in every 3 combos to keep Maim maintained for Butcher's Block; they are very close in single target enmity generation unless the WAR uses Unchained/Steel Cyclone instead of Inner Beast.

edit; it seems like I missed a full page, haha. feel free to disregard.

[Nyalia]

Oh, I never noticed that! I always thought Foresight was the same as Rampart/Sentinel. I should read things more closely. Also, Bulwark can't be a 27% damage reduction because you have to factor in the block rate before bulwark. Even if it makes all hits into blocks, a number of those would have been blocks anyway. And then you get into the damage reduction PLDs have from using shields...

But yeah, just because the tanks are equal doesn't mean it isn't fun to see the math anyway! And WARs do soo much more damage than me (as a PLD), but I think it's so much less than a DPS that it doesn't really factor in anyway.

[Immut]

Unless defense has gotten crazy high without me noticing Foresight is only about a 5% dmg reduction because it raises defense like feather foot does for evasion. It's really a trash skill if you compare it to the glorious gifts pld gives war.

Apparently it has. Here have this spreadsheet I put together a while back. From what I understand, each point of defense is .004455% damage reduction, so that's what it's based on.