Red Mage: The one class that will be impossible to impliment

[Ketsufuma]

I can easily see RDM coming to this game: Why?

Melee Caster DPS

Simple run down of how this class would work for alot of folks

Weapon : Rapier/Fencing style attack stance
Offhand: Shield or maybe a magic crystal? IDK still up to arms with this idea.
Armor: Cloth or light armor specifially for casters.

Skill sets: Magic
Now we alll know RDM is a hybrid class. between WHM and BLM with melee dealt inbetween. We also know that since FF1 that RDM has always used the EN Spells

Enspells: Any elemental spell that imbues weapon with said attributes with extra passive affects
Enfire: Adds fire damage to melee attacks and adds small BURN DOT
EnBlizzard : Adds Ice damage to melee attacks,also slows (or adds Heavy effect) Great for pvp or kiting
Enlightning: (a skill id love to see) Adds Lightning damage to melee attacks, Also shocks enemy adding paralysis
Enstone: Adds earth damage to melee attacks, causes Melee attacks to weaken the opponents armor by a certain % + stacks
Enaero: Adds wind damage to melee attacks, also increases your movement speed (or we could addd a slicing style aoe to the melee attacks like a small cleave)
Enwater: Adds water damage to melee attacks, may also silence the enemy

As far as passive abilites i can see them getting INT +, Maybe a little help from Armor+ passives to help them in the front lines of PvP/PvE

Cross Class abilites would be from either WHM/BLM or their classes.
The RDM is a hybrid so i can see them using any of these cross class abilities to help their parties out as well. Maybe taking healing spells to help off heal if the need arises. or Damage spells to increase their own dps.

I do not see them however getting their FFXI iconic skill Refresh since i think Bards mages balad is good enough.

Skills id love to see from previous games.
Convert: Switches HP with MP
Chaincast: Speeds up spell casting for a certain time frame
Haste: Increases melee attack speed by a certain percent.

The way this Class could work, i could see them implementing this into the armory system almost flawlessly.

[lololink]

We also know that since FF1 that RDM has always used the EN Spells

Wait, what ?
EnSpell appeared with FF11, the closest abilities are the magic blade from rune knights.

[Duelle]

RDM IS NOT BACKLINE. It is a combat mage that uses a rapier.

I'm just gonna leave this here.

A relic of the old forums, but still seems to ring true.

[Giantbane]

RDM would not be hard to implement at all in FFXIV. Support DPS, a DPS class that mixes melee attacks and spell casts and has abilities to restore TP and Mana. Basically a melee BRD. Which would be great for the game because there's no other Jobs that currently fulfill the role that BRD does right now (restore mana in long fights).

It's own class would be good, but it could easily be a second job for the GLD via GLD/THM + CNJ.

[niwaar]

The title of the thread should be changed to something more like "Red Mage: The One Class That Is Impossible To Implement So Everyone Will Like It"

Red Mages can be implemented. But unlike FFXI where they were a Jack of All Trades and a Master of Haste, FFXIV's strict Role system will not allow them to be the hybrid class they so desperately want to be. Red Mage's in XI fit into the Support Role. They were the "equals" of Bard's and Corsairs (and sometimes Summoners) in their ability to buff a group and keep it going over long periods. Sure, they often times were able to fill the Healer role as well, but mostly when incoming group damage and status effects were minimal. They also were the masters of the solo/low man group content due to their flexibility. But in XIV we are saddled with having to fit into a single role. Which role should that be?

Well, we could end up with a Arcanist=Scholar/Summoner set up? YoshiP has come out and admitted that the dual Job from one class was an experiment and in his mind, was not a success. So we can pretty much ignore this as a possibility. (Unless they go and revamp the class/job system which YoshiP has hinted may come with an expansion.)

What we have left is a choice. Do we make Red Mage into a DPS or a Healer? The obvious fit for the game is to make Red Mage into a healer. The game desperately needs a third healer job. But where does that leave the hybrid side of the "definition" of the job? Well, It would allow the Red Mage to be a healer not unlike what the current paradigm of the Scholar healer is. Heal when needed, DPS when you can. Is this fun?

If you go with the DPS role, what exactly do you turn a Red Mage into as a DPS? Typically a Red Mage would be a nuker not unlike a Black Mage, just not as powerful. How do you deal with that imbalance in a game where all DPS are supposed to be made "balanced"? I'm not sure you could if you made them a pure nuker. The next choice would be to make them into the job that the XI devs originally saw Red Mage as, the BattleMage/FencerMage. Red Mage would then be a melee who nuked on combo's and used EnSpells to do their damage. This would more fit into the XIV job system, but would everyone be happy with it? No!

So, While we will get Red Mage (more than likely sooner than later), not everyone will be happy with the Job. The only way to make everyone be happy would to be to redesign the Job/Role/Party paradigm for 3.0 and beyond. The 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 2 DPS (x) paradigm needs to go and the 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 1 Support, 2 DPS(x2) Paradigm needs to step up. Hell I'd love to see the XI 6, 12, 18 person groups come back and XIV's 4,8,24 leave.

[Morningstar1337]

Thought I'd revisit this thread with my own idea for Red Mage (albeit inspired from other ideas for the class) as well as a Fencer class to go with it:

• Role: Tank
• Base Class: Fencer
• Fencers began with nobles who wanted to partake in their battles, they trained alongside their own men and ofthen led then into battle. Earning respect as both a King/Queen and as the general. A side effect is them inspiring the Garleans and the Grand Company leaders to lead in both combat and politics
• Weapon of Choice: Rapiers engraved with Runes. The off hand will be a glyph/hologram that appears like a shield but is used to enchant the blade
• Skill Set
  • Sabre Thrust: 100 potency attack and main combo starter
  • Enblizzard: aspects the blade with ice. All unaspected attacks now give Umbral Ice to the caster
  • Enfire: aspects the blade with fire. All unaspected attacks now give Astral Fire to the caster
  • General Stance: Switches INT with STR.
  • Poison Thrust: Combo Attack that posions. Has a potency of 150 when comboed with Sabre thrust
  • Enstone: aspects the blade with earth. All unaspected attacks now increase emity
  • Enthunder: aspects the blade with levin (lightning). All unaspected attacks now inflict thunder status on the target
  • Silence Slash: Combo attack that silences. Has a potency of 230 when comboed with Sabre Thrust and 280 when comboed with Posion thrust.
  • Enaero: aspected the blade with wind. All unaspected attacks now inflict Aero on the enemy
  • Sleep Slash: Combo attack that puts an enemy to sleep.
  • Aspir Thrust: Works the same as Riot Blade. Can be comboed with Sabre Thrust.
  • Enwater: aspects the blade with water. All unaspected attacks now Stun
  • Drain Thrust: Attack that heals a percentage of the damage. Can be comboed with Sabre, Poison, Silence and Aspir Thrust with a potency ranging from 80 to 200 depending on the combo.
  • Enholy: aspects the blade with light. All unaspected attacks now have a chance to heal party members as well as increased emity
  • Spikes: gives Spikes status based on aspect of the blade. (Level 15 quest reward)
  • Phalanx: spell that adds a status effect that reduces damaged based on your other statuses (be it aliments or other enchantments) (Level 30 quest award)
• NOTE: all En- skills can be used between attacks in a combo.
• Traits
  • Enhanced Enblizzard: increased enmity from ice attacks when used on those weak to ice
  • Enhanced Enfire: increased enmity from fire attacks when used on this weak to fire
  • Enhanced Intelligence
  • Enhanced Enstone: increased emity from earth attacks when use on those weak to earth
  • Enhanced Enthunder: increased emity from levin attacks when used on those weak to levin
  • Enhanced Phalanx: Phalanx also counts the statuses from the enemy that has the most statuses
  • Enhanced Enaero: increased emity from wind attacks when used on those weak to wind
  • Enhanced Enwater: increased emity from water attacks when used on those weak to water
  • Refresh: Allies gain MP after you finish a combo, you gain the same amount multiplied by the amount of enemies attacking you
  • Enhanced Enholy: increased enmity all attacks and a chance to Raise KO'd allies.
• Cross-Class abilities
  • Blizzard II
  • Blizzard III
  • Fire II
  • Fire III
  • Swiftcast
  • Flash
  • Provoke
  • Convalesce
  • Ruin
  • Resserection
  • Psysick
  • Provoke
  • Cure
  • Raise
  • Medica
  • Raging Strikes

Now for the Red Mage job

• Red mages are those who studied the art of Black and White magic. However they are also swordsmen of excellent caliber. They are devotes of balance, believing that both Black and White magic should not be used in extremes. In fact they themselves seldom use the most powerful spells of Thaumaturgy and Conjury, willingly limiting their power to this end. However that is not to say they don't have dangerous techniques of their own (needs Fencer 30 and Thamaturge 15. Takes skills from Gladiator)
• Skills
  • Haste: reduces spell and skill time as well as global cooldown (affects all members of the party)
  • Slow Thrust: combo attack that inflicts slow 250 potency when comboed with Posion Thrust
  • Blood Magic: Enchantment that makes it so that Damage is taken from MP and TP but spells and skills must be cast from HP. Healing also will work on MP instead of HP
  • Restoration: Revives one party member.
  • Spectrum Thrust: Only usable in after all the En- spells are used in 2-3 comboes and you're in Astral Fire. a 300 potency attack that inflicts Thunder and Aero on your target and Regen and Umbral Ice on you and your party. Also takes 500 TP so beware
• Cross-Class skills
  • Flash
  • Provoke
  • Covalesent
  • Swiftcast
  • Transpose
  • Lethargy

I know it's not the best way to go about it. But I wnated to try theorizing a possible red mage class.

[Duelle]

Red Mage's in XI fit into the Support Role. They were the "equals" of Bard's and Corsairs (and sometimes Summoners) in their ability to buff a group and keep it going over long periods.

That's not something you can build a job around. If you want a niche per job, sure, at the risk of having that job become useless once the player trends set in.

YoshiP has come out and admitted that the dual Job from one class was an experiment and in his mind, was not a success.

Might wanna point me to this since I've never seen it mentioned in any of the recent interviews.

What we have left is a choice. Do we make Red Mage into a DPS or a Healer? The obvious fit for the game is to make Red Mage into a healer. The game desperately needs a third healer job.

Chemist and Green Mage. There, you have two jobs that can actually work as healers instead of shoehorning RDM into that role. Again.

If you go with the DPS role, what exactly do you turn a Red Mage into as a DPS? Typically a Red Mage would be a nuker not unlike a Black Mage, just not as powerful. How do you deal with that imbalance in a game where all DPS are supposed to be made "balanced"?

Procs and limitations on what the job can do in ranged. That can be achieved by either removing all options of ranged spells from the job when outside of procs/combos or making said ranged spells cost a lot more resources and/or become cumbersome to use outside of procs/combos.

This would more fit into the XIV job system, but would everyone be happy with it? No!

Here's the thing: from a concept standpoint the Red Mage doesn't work in the environment of an MMORPG. There's too many things that don't work. This in itself is fine because something would have to be changed for it to work within that framework. If you liked spamming debuffs or spamming refresh you could ask for a job such as Oracle, Geomancer or even Calculator. In concept such framework would work for those jobs whereas for RDM it's, for lack of better words, a slap to the face.

So, While we will get Red Mage (more than likely sooner than later), not everyone will be happy with the Job. The only way to make everyone be happy would to be to redesign the Job/Role/Party paradigm for 3.0 and beyond.

This is false. If people would wrap their brains around the fact that certain single-player FF concepts do not work in an MMORPG the issue sort of goes away, because you know concessions and changes have to be made in order for certain jobs to work. Geomancer had to be changed into an aura-focused job to be inserted into FFXI. Summoners became a pet class with DoTs in FFXIV to actually function and prevent the idiocy of FFXI's summoner. Red Mage would be no different because the combat mechanics for the job would have to be different for it to exist in FFXIV.

[Lexarious]

cross-class ability for the Red Mage?



Leaving aside the fact that originally the Spellfencer and Red Mage were synonymous, why shouldn’t the Red Mage be allowed to have Enspells? Originally that was the Red Mage’s domain.

Other FF games exist besides ff11 you know. Magic sword is iconic to spellfencer/runefencer/mystic knight not red mage. They added it to them in 11 and now everyone thinks they need it. It's just as annoying as those that think blue mage must be arabian inspired, wield only a scimitar and work exactly the same as FF11's version.

Sorry no, unless they end up branching off the same class then it would be acceptable. They could do plenty of other things with red mage, while mystic knight/spellfencer/runefencer has always been defined around sword magic.

[Duelle]

Other FF games exist besides ff11 you know. Magic sword is iconic to spellfencer/runefencer/mystic knight not red mage. They added it to them in 11 and now everyone thinks they need it.

Except Enspells are not the same as Magic Sword. Magic Sword is basically "cast a nuke through the sword", whereas Enspells are there to give supplemental damage on auto-attacks. In concept Enspells are supposed to help RDM make up for the lack of raw strength a warrior would have. If you want a modern MMO comparison, Magic Sword is burst damage whereas Enspells are sustained.

Sorry no, unless they end up branching off the same class then it would be acceptable. They could do plenty of other things with red mage, while mystic knight/spellfencer/runefencer has always been defined around sword magic.

Here's the other thing, Magic Sword is not something you can build a class/job around in an MMO. It's too shallow a mechanic to be of any worth, and instead would have to be part of a bigger model. That's why I ended up turning Magic Sword into a ranged nuke that could be combo'd into by RDM, since it would supplement the sword & magic aspect of the job nicely (notice also all the other stuff my suggested RDM would have access to). While yes, Mystic Knight suffered for it, it can be reinvented to make sense akin to what was done with SCH and SMN.

[File2ish]

... Sorry no, unless they end up branching off the same class then it would be acceptable. They could do plenty of other things with red mage, while mystic knight/spellfencer/runefencer has always been defined around sword magic.

As Duelle said, Enspell is different than Magic Sword. Just going to leave it at that and continue on with a sort of rant related to the plenty of ways Red Mage could be implemented. It ends up in what I would kind of like to see it become, so bear with me.

Red Mage has kind of been seen as a sword and casting class since FF1. And most, if not all versions of RDM use a sword (rapier's are generally the accepted proficiency in more recent games). Given what the job has been in the past (middle ground between BLM and WHM, can't use high level magic of either).

RDM would be difficult to implement in ways people would like. FFXIV:ARR's combat system is much different than any other FF and the job would be very hard to balance. Should it be a straight up casting or melee job? Something in the middle (generally accepted that it could be hybrid)? Frontline caster? Frontline healer? Backline buffer (please no...)? Melee with magic DoTs? Magic tank? Would the base class be THM? CNJ? GLD? A new class (Fencer?)? There is much to choose from and many different ways to balance it.

What spells would it have? RDM is pretty much kind of like a BLM+WHM that can melee, right? But we can't really just give it Fire, Blizzard, Thunder, Stone, and Aero if it's a melee job (well we could because of cross class abilities). It wouldn't work with the battle system very well unless the spells themselves do similar (though still less) amounts of damage as BLM and WHM. And it wouldn't have any access to high end spells like Fire 3 (Flare and holy don't count, job specific and all).

That leaves us with their weapon: generally a sword. Enspells add damage on top of what is dealt much like Sword Oath on PLD, but elementally aspected (which won't matter much in this game). Enspells won't be a big mechanic for RDM if it does get implemented into the game. I imagine it would work the same as Sword Oath and just add some extra damage to auto attacks.

What people have suggested in past threads (possibly this one too, I didn't look through all of the posts), is rather than (just) having Enspell, have the abilities for the class/job be mostly sword based "elemental strikes" (think Ravager's melee attacks in FFXIII; aquastrike, flamestrike, froststrike, etc.. This is assuming a new class of course) with the respective self buffs and enemy debuffs combos can give in this game. Could make it so RDM doesn't get any DoTs too, that way cross class wouldn't be useless.

Cross class could be simple for RDM if it's THM and CNJ as the "sub classes". Say Swiftcast, Thunder, and Blizzard II from THM. Stoneskin, Aero, Raise, and Cure from CNJ. RDM would have decent MND and INT, so DoTs from Thunder and Aero wouldn't be useless. Swiftcast would allow thunder to be used without slowing melee DPS as much. Raise and Cure for the same reasons PLD can use them (note: raise can't be done mid battle without the trait CNJ gets). Stoneskin is debatable, it would give something more for MP to be used on, say in rest periods of a fight (Titan jumps or what have you). And Blizzard 2 is there since WHM gets it (as well as SCH and SMN I think). All would give pretty good utility from those classes while not being useless.

I think it could make a good hybrid job. That's what I see it being if it does get added to the game. I'd really like to see what the dev team would come up with for the job if they do add it into the game. I'd play it for sure (I love the job regardless =p).