WAR MT + PLD OT vs. PLD MT + WAR OT in terms of DPS

[Giantbane]

People forget that Warriors can sorta negate the damage penalty with maim (+20%) and storms eye (-10% slashing), a good warrior can pretty much keep it up and hold hate at the same time. But i think it's probably more efficient to have warrior as an offtank to do slashing debuff + attack debuff and DPS and leave the main tanking to PLD.

off topic: that said, I play both classes and it's no contest when it comes to damage, a warrior can out damage PLD easily while tanking/off tanking.

Maim and storm's eye is available with or without defiance so neither are making up for the damage penalty. There's the damage a WAR does without defiance while using maim and storm's eye and then they do about 25% less damage with defiance on. The damage penalty is still there in full effect.

War vs. PLD can be deceptive when considering damage in their DPS stance. War's do a lot more big hits, but their only off GCD ability is brutal swing (not always able to be used). PLD makes up that damage with more hits, coming from extra auto-attack damage via sword oath and powerful off GCD abilities like spirits within and circle of scorn. In addition, fight or flight is not quite as powerful as berserk, but it lasts for 50% longer and doesn't cause pacification either (causing you to miss 1-2 full GCD attacks).

You also shouldn't really count the WAR's max dmg combo (SE->BB) unless you're talking about a burn phase where you don't care about damage received. WAR OT should be doing SE->SP most of the time to keep 100% up time on both debuffs.

Kitru did the math, it comes out slightly in the PLDs favor with Sword Oath vs WAR without Defiance when both classes have access to storm's eye, but it's still very close (within a few % of eachother).

As far as who loses out more, it's definitely the PLD when swapping to tank. The PLD loses the extra sword oath damage, then loses another 20% damage via shield oath, and since they're getting hit all the time, spirits within will either not be doing its full damage, or it needs to be delayed a few seconds to use when at near full life. The only thing the PLD gains back is shield swipe after blocking, which is a small DPS buff (but not huge). War on the other hand only loses that 25% from defiance. However, they have a number of abilities to mitigate this. Wrath stacks grant more crit, unchained can mitigate the defiance buff for a set period of time, and inner beast is a very high potency attack not subject to the defiance penalty.

Thus, since WAR has the highest potential damage while tanking (they lose less when going to defiance) and PLD has slightly better damage while not tanking, the combo with the highest DPS potential is WAR MT + PLD OT.

HOWEVER ...

The other problem with WAR MT is that it's very difficult to keep the SE debuff up 100% while tanking with a PLD off tank unless you drop the SP debuff. To keep both and have 100% up time, you need to be able to tank using the low threat SP->SE combo. This only works if the PLD has spent a good portion of the fight off tanking something else, giving the WAR a significant threat lead, allowing him to use the low threat combo. If this is not the case, you'll probably need to work the BB combo in at least 1/3 of the time, which means that the SE debuff will now only be up about 60% of the time. This results in around a 3-4% loss in DPS for BOTH the WAR MT and PLD OT. In this case, the numbers may be more equal, but it would require a more involved analysis that I'm not willing to do.

[Ooshima]

His parser is broke or he only did it for 15 seconds, either way this post has 0 credibility. Paladin sword oath > War no defiance with equal gear and stat allotment.

He could have shown you if he wanted to. We are talking about a WAR from our Server 2nd T9 clear team. Server first team was also from the same FC. I'm talking about players and a FC who certainly knows their trade and doesn't bullshit.

[Giantbane]

At ilvl99 using the Bravura Animus and str accessories I can easily pull 220-250 on a target dummy sustained dps (keep in mind i'm VIT specced). If I switched to str spec (i'm currently considering but I usually MT most fights (only experienced t6 and t7)), that would give me an additional 30 strength. With food I could probably squeeze out another 10-20 dps. I don't think 345 would be that difficult to obtain at all.

The extra 30 strength would probably give me an extra 40-50 dps. + the 10-20 from the food. That is easily an extra 50-70 dps on top of the 220-250 I already can pull. People in this game don't understand what DPS numbers the SHOULD be pulling. AN i90 dps should be pulling at least 300 dps on most fights. On dragoon (ilvl90) I can pull about 300-320 on a target dummy consistently. Fully geared monks are pulling around 450-500 dps on turn8 currently. Why is 350 such an unreasonable number?

So 30 extra STR is going to give you 40-50 DPS while the 450 or so STR, and i100 weapon you have is only providing 220-250 DPS? That doesn't seem right.

He could have shown you if he wanted to. We are talking about a WAR from our Server 2nd T9 clear team. Server first team was also from the same FC. I'm talking about players and a FC who certainly knows their trade and doesn't bullshit.

Knowing their trade or not is sort of irrelevant when we're talking about WAR dps. It's not like it's really complicated. We're not talking about a 27 move rotation here. It's 3 combos to pick from with no procs and no positional requirements. If he is getting those numbers (not going to say he doesn't because I don't have that level of gear and don't use a parser anyhow), I'd be curious to whether or not he was using BB or not (which impacts SE & SP up time) and if he's using fracture (not sustainable for very long in terms of TP).

Either way, a PLD with sword oath *should* be able to produce similar numbers given the math that has been done. I don't know if anyone has tried it with similar gear to the WAR. If the PLD wasn't close, I would want to know why there is a discrepancy. I've heard the extra PLD sword oath strikes didn't used to get picked up by parsers very well. I don't know if that's still an issue.

[Ooshima]

Knowing their trade or not is sort of irrelevant when we're talking about WAR dps. It's not like it's really complicated. We're not talking about a 27 move rotation here. It's 3 combos to pick from with no procs and no positional requirements. If he is getting those numbers (not going to say he doesn't because I don't have that level of gear and don't use a parser anyhow), I'd be curious to whether or not he was using BB or not (which impacts SE & SP up time) and if he's using fracture (not sustainable for very long in terms of TP).

Either way, a PLD with sword oath *should* be able to produce similar numbers given the math that has been done. I don't know if anyone has tried it with similar gear to the WAR. If the PLD wasn't close, I would want to know why there is a discrepancy. I've heard the extra PLD sword oath strikes didn't used to get picked up by parsers very well. I don't know if that's still an issue.

I was talking about a dummy parse earlier thou, which means you simply do max DPS combo which means it is eye and BB. My alt warrior which is using a i95 weapon, head and boots i110, other body armor i90 and i70 crafted accessories I deal 28X on dummy. These numbers are achievable.

On the real battlefield, while I do not know exactly how he works but in general say for T9, he simply opens with infuriate-IB then off defiance. Eye and BB combo for maximizing DPS but he will swap BB for Path at appropriate times like before Ravensbeak/claw. He does use Fracture. Not going to deny that this is TP hungry thou, his teammates acknowledged that he is TP hungry as well.

I am really not sure how PLD will come near WAR in terms if raw damage given both wearing STR gears. PLD's Sword Oath works for auto attacks but WAR's Storm Eye 10% debuff works for all of WAR's attacks. BB's potency is higher than Halone not to forget. Plus the bonus from Maim. While FoF works for 10s longer than Berserk and without a 5s Pacification debuff, but the 50% from Berserk is of no comparison.

With a recast of 2.5s for each weaponskills, a PLD can do 4x RoH combos in the 30s FoF buff, and each RoH combo is for a total of 610 potency, so 0.3 x 610 x 4 = 732 total potency gain. Divide this over 30, that is a 24.4 potencey/s gain from FoF.

On the other hand, WARs would go for 1x Eye combo which is 610 total potency, followed by 2x BB which is 630 and end with a Heavy Swing-Maim before Berserk ends and suffers from Pacification. So the raw potency within this 20s will be 610 + 630 + 630 + 150 + 190 = 2210. Taking into account that you will have a 5s pacification which means you are losing 2GCD worth of time, we can take that as 400 potency loss on average. 2210 - 400 = 1810. WAR's advantage here is that they can have Eye up all the time which is a 10% benefit, plus Maim which is another 20%, that's a "perm" 30% benefit. It is already like having a "perm" FoF. When combined with 50% of Berserk, during this 25s (20s berserk with 5s pacification debuff) it translate to 1810 x (0.5 + 0.2 + 0.1) = 1448 potency gain over 25s of time which translates to 57.92 potency/s increment. Even if we were to talk about Berserk only, 1810 x 0.5 over 25s = 36.22 potency/s which is still 48.44% higher than FoF's per/s gain.

Shield Oath's benefit will not be able to compare with the benefit of Maim + Eye from a WAR and the sheer difference in boost of Berserk over FoF. Even BB is 20 potency higher than Halone, WAR and PLD DPS simply can't be compared. That is the reason why WARs can simply rip off hate from PLD - and there are a lot of time if I open with Infuriate-IB-Off Defiance-Eye combo-2x BB combo, hate automatically goes to me and I can continue to hold hate off defiance while the competing PLD in i9X ish gear (my WAR is i89 now) can't take hate off me. In fact I knew this and I was a scumbag to some of the better geared PLDs when I run Main Scenario Roulette - when my opening BB crit for 1.2k ish I had fun seeing the PLD who assumed he was the MT trying hard to take the boss back from me LOL. WAR's raw power is just.. too delicious


EDIT: I noted that someone said earlier that PLD attacking the same target with the 10% slashing debuff will overtake.

Revisit the above math FoF alone is 0.3 x 610 x 4 = 732, so we change it to (0.1 +0.3) x 610 x 4, over 30s, that's 32.53 potency/s gain under FOF. Still lose to Berserk's 36.22 potency/s which has already taken account of the 5s Pacification loss. Berserk is still 11.33% higher than FoF per sec.

And the fact that Sword Oath's 50 potency buff only applies to auto attacks, while WAR's Maim is a 20% buff to every of his attacks, auto attack included.

[Giantbane]

War DPS is hawt

Berserk is 50% attack power for 20s, not 50% extra damage for 25s. It doesn't have any effect on your damage contribution from weapon damage or Det to my knowledge. I think people have ballparked it closer to +40% damage, but I don't know for sure. And again, you're losing 1-2 GCD attacks due to pacification every 1:30, which does pull berserk's buff back a bit. FoF is a flat 30% more damage, so it gets all the benefit of weapon damage and det included.

Sword Oath has been ballparked around 16% if I recall, so it gets very close to maim, and you don't need to use a lower potency attack for it either. Remember that 50 potency buff (i don't think it's exactly 50 potency either, there's some weirdness to it) is happening every melee swing. For a PLD it's getting the bonus every 2s, more than 1 per GCD attack. That adds up.

Where the PLD catches up is the off GCD attacks. War only has Brutal Swing @ 100 potency. PLD gets spirits within (up to 300pot) and circle of scorn (250pot).

Anyhow, according to kitru's math this put the PLD just below the WAR in DPS without SE and higher than the WAR with SE. Since we're talking about a WAR + PLD scenario, SE is available, which should make the PLD edge out the WAR ... as long as he gets SE.

[Dano]

i don't parse tank dps but i really doubt PLD on sword oath does more than WAR off defiance. Simply looking at the number of dmg buffs/debuff a warrior has access to and skill potency is enough to know.

maybe I'll try on a training dummy later on.

that said we are slowly going off topic.

[Ooshima]

Well tonight I can config my PLD to have same WD and STR stat as my WAR and get a WAR to party with me to keep SE buff up and see if PLD is really higher or not.

Whilst I don't main a WAR, but the fact that in my experience I have been ripping and at the same time, holding the ripped hate from better geared PLDs (than me) shows that the amount of damage generated by a DPS-ing WAR is high enough that these PLDs, even with enmity multiplier from Shield Oath, still could not catch up.

that said we are slowly going off topic.

Well, if so I don't think there is a firm topic based on the title. The title itself would eventually point to a direction where WAR or PLD deals more DPS while being off tank mode. Either job can be a MT or OT all the way to T9, no issues. If anything it is about why a WAR or PLD is better for a MT based on each fight, whether we are dealing with constant damage or frequent spikes in damage to determine who's a better tank to use for that instance. If the players aren't concerned about it, WAR-WAR PLD-PLD WAR-PLD whatever, doesn't really matter. Eventually if you are concerned, you will be either min-maxing on whether you want WAR or PLD to be the MT due to constant or spike dmg, or simply just want to optimize raid DPS by choosing the higher DPS tank to be OT.

Since OP asks on raid DPS, then we will be naturally looking at off tanking DPS capabilities of both jobs.

[Kimura410]

i haven't read thru this yet, but id bet most people will say what i am about to.

ive tested the exact gear between the two, and a PLD OT does better deeps than a WAR OT. This is with a WAR without defiance, and the PLD in sword oath. Its only a 5-9 % difference though, but hey, that can be the difference in an enrage.

however.....recently I've been rolling as paladin with dps stuff on trial roulette. i often get titan, and i run out of tp fairly quick. paladins have no way to regain tp as an off tank. shield swipe isn't available, because you aren't blocking shit. you'd need a bard in the party to play tp song. then you're jeopardizing the casters dps because that bard can't play foes for them while they are buffing up your tp.

id say its better to roll with the paladin as MT, because he won't have tp problems, and the warrior can go to town on his debuffs, so imo its better. paladin sword oath does do more damage though.

[Kimura410]

i don't parse tank dps but i really doubt PLD on sword oath does more than WAR off defiance. Simply looking at the number of dmg buffs/debuff a warrior has access to and skill potency is enough to know.

maybe I'll try on a training dummy later on.

that said we are slowly going off topic.

keep in mind, storms eye buffs paladins damage as well. so whether the warrior is main tanking or off, if he uses SE, it will increase the paladins damage as well. i tested war vs pld a week or two ago, and paladin wins in sword oath vs a warrior no defiance. i used the exact same gear. the difference was around 5%. warrior does more damage as the main tank though. if you're solo tanking, warrior would do more dps than a paladin solo tanking.

[BadRNG]

Stuff

Why are you adding in Brutal Swing's potency numbers but not Circle of Scorn or Spirits Within? And why aren't you accounting for the extra 50 potency per auto attack from Sword Oath into the total PLD potency production? (And don't forget PLD auto attacks more often than WAR) There's no question that WAR hits harder with weapon skills. The way PLD in sword oath potentially closes the gap is through off-gcd skills and passive damage from auto attacks. Talking about how high you can crit sort of misses the point.

This is kitru's old math post comparing sword oath PLD to non-defiance WAR.