I think it is time to admit the obvious - Echo is an insult to the average gamer.

[Fawkes]

What I´m trying to say is that the removal of echo would be unfair to those that are actually giving their best.

You don´t need anything to tell you whats going to come. You have enough time to react when the landslide appears.
Ofc dying is no fun, but it is even less fun to wipe because someone else made a mistake.

You talk about learning. But a display telling you what move is about to come isn´t going to teach you anything.
Its like the game playing itself. That would be the ultimate insult to every player.

If you are unsatisfied with your own performance and want to learn more than just go in the fight again.
Nothing is hindering you.

But the removal of echo would hinder players that actually give their best.

You have enough time to react. Everyone is not you. All I am saying is give people more warning, that is hardly the game playing itself.

I have gotten good at Titan HM, but I have sympathy for people I see dying in it. Because I know that when you get knocked off you can't learn anything.

Removing the echo hinders no one, because it doesn't help against the mechanics that are the actual problems people have with the fight. It just buffs the players who can already win without the buff. The last time I did it we won in one go with no buff and only half the party alive at the end.

[Xairos]

Is the OP going under the assumption that the ECHO will just keep stacking til you auto-win? It goes in intervals of +5% per three mins of a (usual) 50 min fight. You waste more time building an ECHO than just trying the content. Add to that fact that many players will just quit after a few wipes so IF you do see 15% usually, psychologically, you team is about ready to throw in the towel.

[TornadoFury]

i wish instead of the echo buff they made it so we can meld the elemental resistance to our gear and that help us greatly so if your stuck with content on say titan ex then earth res will help you instead of this echo buff. That way theres a use for the elemental materia so the market does good.

[Kat_Manx]

The Echo is not a bad thing.

a) If you can already win without the Echo, it's no problem. You know you can do it, and with the Echo, you can STILL do it, only faster.

b) If you can not win without the Echo, with the Echo you might win. This will continue with each new battle you encounter up until a point where the player yet again can not win because it's too tough for them or the battle doesn't have the Echo implemented yet, and they will be stuck there until said Echo is implemented in the future, while the "better" players will be ahead. The better players will ALWAYS be ahead.

c) This happened to be my case: I already knew how to beat Titan EX months ago, but I could never win because I never found 7 other people who could do it too. Then the Echo came, and I could finally progress.

In conclusion, there is absolutely no negative side effects to the Echo.

As a bonus however, since there are people who apparently care about who beats what and when, every player should be stamped with a date on when they the first time ever beat a dungeon or a primal or whatever, and it if was with or without the Echo, so that everyone can go check them out on the Lodestone, brag about their skills, shun the heathens who dare use the Echo and confirm world firsts.

[Kuwagami]

As a bonus however, since there are people who apparently care about who beats what and when, every player should be stamped with a date on when they the first time ever beat a dungeon or a primal or whatever, and it if was with or without the Echo, so that everyone can go check them out on the Lodestone, brag about their skills, shun the heathens who dare use the Echo and confirm world firsts.

would be too dangerous for the community sake. Besides, the only "world first" that matters is the Coil, and Yoshida already gives a word on that when it happens (BG for the 2 releases we had until now)

[Kat_Manx]

would be too dangerous for the community sake. Besides, the only "world first" that matters is the Coil, and Yoshida already gives a word on that when it happens (BG for the 2 releases we had until now)

I know it would be bad for the community, but this community is already down the drain... ._. Was trying to find a solution that would semi-please all parties.

[Moqi]

Nah. Echo for everyone and everything!

[Ikeda]

To people who think that MMOs are still about time invested or stuff like that, you're either 10 years late or you just woke up from a very long sleep. MMOs now are about accessibility and vertical progression. Vertical progression means the older content is obsolete and totally junk the day a newer content comes.

That's why today's "mmos" aren't mmos at all. They're more like "Baby's first mmo" trying to masquerade as a real mmo. Except the developers apparently think the "babies" never grow up, are incapable of learning on their own, and are unable to realize every developer has essentially been releasing the same "mmo" people have been playing since 2007 (WoW BC) with a new coat of paint over and over for the past 7-9+ years.

I know it would be bad for the community, but this community is already down the drain... ._. Was trying to find a solution that would semi-please all parties.

This game stopped having a community ever since ARR released. The second you add a cross server duty finder that removes the server-wide consequences for people being pricks the community goes out the window.

[Fynlar]

The only groups I've ever been in that specifically tried to build up Echo was for Titan EX. Despite me already knowing that Echo is useless for that particular fight.

Naturally, none of those groups ended up winning.

Other than that, people aren't really "relying" on it nearly as much as some people in this thread seem to think.

Before echo was introduced pretty much every new player was stuck at titan hm.

Nope. What helped here was the introduction of trials roulette.

Before, hopping into Titan HM on the DF was practically suicide 95+% of the time. Now? The majority of your group will probably be there on roulette, meaning 1) they will likely be outgeared for the fight and 2) they must have completed it at least once before, so they *should* generally know what to expect even if they might not necessarily be pro at it.

Most of my Titan runs now are won on the first try, so Echo isn't even coming into play. Most of the times I don't win on the first try, it was due to a simple rusty dodging mistake, usually on the part of one of the healers, and NOT because the group is undergeared or lacking output. Usually after a "warmup" run to work the kinks out, the group does just fine on the second try, and would have done just fine Echo-less.

[Grizzlebeard]

Rather than take it as an insult to the player I'd take it as more of an indication the developers are woefully disconnected with the average ability level of their playerbase.

Or, if you're cynical, they artificially overtune fights to hamper progression as a means of drawing out content and then open the floodgates when they're ready for people to progress at their (S-E's) pace.