I think it is time to admit the obvious - Echo is an insult to the average gamer.

[Baneus]

SO OP is this your thing now? you are just gonna make a complaint thread everyday?

I see. He's that sort of poster - "herp a derp, I trolololol people. I is a winnar" sort of muppet. When in-fact, he is a sad person and we should all feel pity for him.

[AiChyan]

Complaining about echo when you were getting kicked out of nerfed as hell Amdapor Keep strikes me as absolutely hilarious.

[Sairii]

Before echo was introduced pretty much every new player was stuck at titan hm.
Why?
Because even if you know the fight 100% and never take any additional dmg from avoidable stuff, you will still fail because your team sucks.

Now with echo 3 players are enough to beat him and players can go on eventually doing new stuff.

There is no echo in t6+.

[Seif]

Why even complain about this really?

I mean the biggest challenge in this game is to avoid the insta-kill mechanics. The times when you die because of a bad healer even in DF are very few and far between.

Gear stats and buffs mean absolutely nothing when standing in a landslide.

[Authority]

SNIP

snip

Let me give you an example.

I am doing X trial wearing Full Green Gear. We get wiped ten times so 10x Echo. And the reason is because my DPS sucks, my gear sucks, my weapon sucks, I don't know my class, I don't know how to rotate, I suck and ect. But on the tenth time, I am so OP that even me can clear the event.

Should I progress to the next group event and wipe the whole group again until we reach 10x Echo? Should I be allowed to wipe others but still clear it up with that buff? Should I have the right to have the worse gear in hard-mode but be able to clear it? Do I have the right to demand not to improve and get carried?

That is the issue. It does not prepare me to face harder bosses and more complex bosses because when the aoe hits me for i.e 3k but the buff gives me 4k I will always not care and always rely on that buff. I personally know already that I need to be geared up accordingly and that is why I will farm to death for that i75 weapon because I do not want "gear" to be an excuse or the "buff" to be an excuse for failing to do my job properly.

If I don't do that and carry on and reach a boss fight where Echo is not there, I will just wipe everyone and say "Sorry guys. I thought there would be a buff in there so I came with my greens and my inexperience thinking I can do this".

Echo does not help the game because it does not prepare me. It does not make me responsible or caring about my own performance or my performance in group because it has taught me to rely on it. Hard-mode should be hard-mode and train people so they understand that some basic requirements are needed to win the fight. From having good gear, to be more aware of adds to ect.

[Wobble]

1 you can click it off as someone already pointed out and 2 it's not always a help. I have been in fights where we are all well geared and then echo kicks in and we start pushing phases and then we have to compensate for that, so the echo is not always an easy win.

[Sairii]

Echo does not help the game because it does not prepare me. It does not make me responsible or caring about my own performance or my performance in group because it has taught me to rely on it. Hard-mode should be hard-mode and train people so they understand that some basic requirements are needed to win the fight.

So we should just remove echo so that the 5 players that deserve a win because they execute everything flawless can wipe again and do the stuff another hundred times just because the new people still cannot figure out how to avoid aoes?

And you can see all the abilities, if you died to that then you should be able to remember what it does.
You still learn from it.
But rejoice! You still have titan ex that you need to beat. You still get your wipes.
You also got echo there. Lets see how many weeks it takes you WITH echo.
Like I said. Echo is only in old content.
The developers want you to get through it asap so you can enjoy the new stuff.

[Kuwagami]

To people who think that MMOs are still about time invested or stuff like that, you're either 10 years late or you just woke up from a very long sleep. MMOs now are about accessibility and vertical progression. Vertical progression means the older content is obsolete and totally junk the day a newer content comes.

Then, why would it be allowed to block players anymore ? They made it a roadblock to the rest of the content, and will remove the gate to make a new one next patch, and the patch after that (SCoB access without T5 in 2.4, please look forward to it !). Gating players behind useless trash fights (yeah, an obsolete raid is no more than a trash fight. Leviathan is already on par with T5, expect 2.4 primal to give something better than T5. T5 will be junk in the path to the new obsolete content.) would be a suicidal move.


If you don't like that, please search for a horizontal progression MMO. I'm sure there are some.

(btw, I'd like to add that the echo is basically only a "take 6-18 month of overgear right now" and doesn't help you in any other ways for the fight...)

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just quoted for the name. Poring love :3

[Ryuko]

I do not find the echo buff insulting.

SE designed this game so that even the HARDEST content is an intricate part of the overall main storyline -- even raid content (coil). They want all players to enjoy this content... eventually. The way they ensure all players will get to move forward in the storyline is by making fights slightly easier by simulating that player having better gear. Aka, the grind to get gear just to match the minimum dps check of fights (Titan's heart for example) is removed in exchange for the echo buff. It's important to note here that the echo buff will NOT allow you to bypass certain mechanics. The echo buff won't save you from dying to basic mechanics that you need to dodge.

There will always be a tier of 'hardest' fights that they will NOT make easier -- and those fights are 'current content'. You will have many many months to clear the 'current content' before newer, harder content is released and they make the older stuff easier to clear. Just because Titan hard is 'easier' now doesn't necessarily degrade your accomplishments when you first beat the fight. This is really a, "back in my day," argument. "Back in my day, I had to built Titan hard parties for WEEKS just to find people who could dodge!" Well, that's not the current content. Of course it's going to be easier. And you know what's the 'impressive' fight right now? If you are a raider, it's T9 coil. But in a few months, when more coil is released, it won't be seen as that special, just like a Leviathan Ex win might seem unattainable to the 'average' player right now, but it will eventually be met.

There is 'wiggle' room when the echo buff is in play -- that much is true. But it's not always just about the better stats... 'old' content is more widely understood, now.

And if you don't like the echo... just remove it. For the real challenges, enjoy the current content... and the upcoming superhard "Brutal" mode coil (not bluffing -- it was mentioned recently).

[blowfin]

The Echo is an insult to decent game design. It's a band aid to help people catch up on content that, probably intentionally, excluded the average player and is excruciatingly difficult with PUG's.

It's just evidence that SE couldn't find real middle ground with it's content, that XIV fails to teach players advanced mechanics, and that short-cycle-content-obsoletion is here to stay.

Should I progress to the next group event and wipe the whole group again until we reach 10x Echo? Should I be allowed to wipe others but still clear it up with that buff? Should I have the right to have the worse gear in hard-mode but be able to clear it? Do I have the right to demand not to improve and get carried?

That is the issue. It does not prepare me to face harder bosses and more complex bosses because when the aoe hits me for i.e 3k but the buff gives me 4k I will always not care and always rely on that buff. I personally know already that I need to be geared up accordingly and that is why I will farm to death for that i75 weapon because I do not want "gear" to be an excuse or the "buff" to be an excuse for failing to do my job properly.

Um, this point is fail dude. The more difficult fights in this game are so different from each other, and rely so heavily on unforgiving mechanics, echo isn't going to really help at all until you get the hang of the fights. T5 and Titan EX are notable examples, get back to us when you've cleared those and tell me that the echo didn't turn something exceedingly annoying into something slightly less annoying.