first it was crafting and gathers, now it pvpers...

[Garlyle]

Yeah that whole thing about morale not being a factor in Frontline hasn't actually been confirmed officially, just part of a bad translation. Could you imagine the rage that would incite in PvPers that actually spend the time and sweat to do PvP right and battle through the ranks to actually get the new gear?

We'd still have our unique gear, and it still applies in Wolves' Den. It's worth noting though that while my japanese is hella rusty, I think they did talk something about Morale (but I can't say for certainty they confirmed it to be irrelevant). They did, absolutely, talk about an Item Level Sync. And honestly I'm for Morale not counting - Morale arguably damaged Wolves' Den more than it helped it.

Unless they're planning on making significant changes to the Wolves' Den, I don't really see this happening.

I'm pretty sure they don't intend to change Wolves' Den, for better or worse.

[Malamasala]

In PvP gear should never matter anyway. That is like playing chess and having the opponent have 3 queens because "he bought 2 extra chess games to grab the pieces".

[Nalien]

Morale arguably damaged Wolves' Den more than it helped it.

Morale didn't damage Wolves' Den, they way they handled Wolves' Den damaged it.

They could have simply split the queues into iLv brackets, instead of what we currently have;
iLv55, where the crafted stuff can actually server a purpose for beginners rather than just using your PvE stuff.
iLv70, where you go once you've started getting some of that iLv70 PvP gear.
iLv90, and so on.
iLv100, you get the idea.
If you add progressively better rewards for winning in those matches, the grind could have been handled much better as well. By the time you get to iLv100, you're either there to play with your Rank 40 gear and they could just add Tomestone rewards instead (if Wolves' Den rewarded you with Mythology? Oh boy would I love that). They could even have changed the Wolves' Den layout a bit with each bracket. How many dungeons did you do going from Lv1 to Lv40? Not to mention different forms of leveling in PvE. Yet Wolves' Den just gets the single arena? Slapping different brackets on it doesn't really give you new places to level, but it's a nice illusion.

With that, PvE gear becomes worthless in PvP and Morale has a very real purpose, it defines PvP gear and you're only punished if you don't bother getting the iLv55 stuff (I think a vendor should have sold this for Gil, too). As you progress and get new gear, you want to try out that gear so you enter the next bracket. That would have provided a proper sense of progression, rather than "I'm now Rank 20, doing the exact same thing I did at Rank 1".

Add to that some additional game modes, and Wolves' Den would have been fine in my opinion. Frontlines seems to have a Capture the Flag and King of the Hill style going for it, why couldn't those concepts have been introduced to Wolves' Den months ago, when everyone was complaining how boring it is doing the same thing over and over? Wolves' Den is meant to be a training arena, isn't it?

With all that, Frontlines as a iLv80 bracket for PvP would actually work fairly well, they could even just add another iLv100 version that people can eventually work their way towards (not in the same update, but once it becomes clear enough would be able, and willing, to participate). People would be able to jump into Frontlines and get a feel for PvP, then they'd go to Wolves' Den to improve; with better rewards and two extra game modes they may not even hate Wolves' Den as much as I do. Frontlines would only end up with three real distinct players with a iLv80 cap; PvE players capped at iLv80, PvP players in iLv70, PvP players in iLv90+ capped at iLv80, with a proper spread the difference wouldn't be too disastrous.

EDIT; Oh, and with iLv based PvP brackets, PvP Roulette would be nice too, to keep people going down to the iLv55 as it's needed. PvP EXP and Wolf Marks rewards daily, with a small amount of Wolf Marks for being the "Adventurer in Need" as well. Perfect.

[Nikita]

I personally like the fact that gear will be normized. My favorite PvP system in an MMO is in Guild Wars 2 where everyone is normalized so it's then skill vs skill and the rewards you get are then purely cosmetic. This is their take on PvE for the most part as well and I love that. There is no gear barrier of entry, anyone can take part in any content at any time. You get to show off by looking good with that cosmetic armor you've earned, not by being overpowered.

I wish more MMOs did this.

[Garlyle]

snip

I agree they could've handled Wolves' Den way better. That said, I doubt that a better 'progression' via iLvl queues would have actually assisted the Den's popularity with players enough to offset how atrocious an item level 90 entry queue would be. Ask high rank players how atrocious queue times are (as the system does try to match via rank right now).

[abzoluut]

It's nice when it's skill vs skill! Let's not take GW2 as an example here, that game is designed so badly.

It seems that people bother with PvP for the consmetic aspect. I don't think that was SE's plan. If it were up to me, I would have never implemented PvP in an FF game. I hope it's not going to interfere with PVE which it already does too much.

[Nalien]

I agree they could've handled Wolves' Den way better. That said, I doubt that a better 'progression' via iLvl queues would have actually assisted the Den's popularity with players enough to offset how atrocious an item level 90 entry queue would be. Ask high rank players how atrocious queue times are (as the system does try to match via rank right now).

That's what things like Mythology rewards and a Roulette system would be for. The important thing though, is that even if you're in iLv90, you can queue for iLv55 (where the most people would be) and get queue times the same as anyone else. Your gear would be capped, and your Rank wouldn't mean a great deal, certainly not enough to make you too overpowered now that we start with all the abilities, so they could do away with the Rank based queuing system, or at least make it much more lenient. When I started out and didn't have any abilities, I never really found my opponent having abilities to be a massive factor in success, now that they're all unlocked from the start I can only imagine it's even less of a factor.

[Gurpsmeister]

There's no staying power or clout to this games PVP anyhow. Anyone playing FFXIV for the PVP is desperate or ignorant or both. There's so many other games that give such a better pvp experience than this game does. It's an afterthought in FFXIV, a game built for PVE types.

PVP'rs this is not the home for you, at least not the hardcore ones.

[zeroumus]

never liked gear being segregated for different activities anyway. Should be able to gain gear though a variety of activities and use it anywhere in the game. That's how it should be. Negating the moral stat is a GOOD idea, they should take it a step further and remove it from wolfs den too

[Malamasala]

never liked gear being segregated for different activities anyway. Should be able to gain gear though a variety of activities and use it anywhere in the game. That's how it should be. Negating the moral stat is a GOOD idea, they should take it a step further and remove it from wolfs den too

I honestly think a "hero point" system would have been the ultimate for MMOs. Do whatever you want, you still get points and can get anything you want with the same points.

The problem here of course is that your view changes, and instead of "Oh big deal, new endgame gear added" it would become "I just wasted my points on old endgame gear and have to re-grind for the new ones! I hate this!". Same thing really, but yet so different in feeling.