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  1. #331
    Player
    Nero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,671
    Character
    Karon Mephisto
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynric View Post
    Thief is a class here and named Rogue and performs the same role it does in most ff games,
    Nope, it does not. IT does the same way like Gladiator is the "iconic" PLD, Conjurer is the "Iconic" WHM and so on, it simply is not. May read the Names of the Japanese Classes and you will realize something; it is nothing more than a definition of the Weapon Type. Out of that will branch the Jobs, just like PLD, WAR, NIN and whatever else is out there.

    You will never see SAM, BLU, RDM etc being a Class, since it just not fits the System of FFXIV. Regardless of THF being possible or not, Rogues IS NOT Thief. Rogues simply defines in the Japanese as "Dual Wield" User. And for those who say Rogue does play like THF, can you link me to the Traits and Abilities of Rogue? Since you obviously know more than everyone else. As far as it was explained, Rogue is using Stuff like Poisons, which i can't remember being a Major-Trait of the THF Job..

    Anyways.. this Discussion wont go anywhere...

    Sidenote, quote from Yoshi ( recent interview click):

    Also I do feel that scouting classes are lacking so I want to bring in Thief, Ninja and those that have to do with stealth. Also more casters like Blue Mage and Red Mage are something I would like to add.

    Interesting, isn't it? Yoshi is well aware of their own System and that Thief can't be a Class itself... so create out of that statement, whatever you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinseykinz View Post
    -Again, when SE explained why they are calling the class Rogue and not THF, they basically also implied that in their development minds, Rogue=another name for Thief. If this is true, then at least at this point, there is no future plan to include Thief as a potential job split off from Rogue.
    Not really what SE said btw. They said Rogue's were original Thieves, so they lost their "specialization" over time.. guess what a Job is in FFXIV and branches from a "Weapon Type"? A specialization of a Class...
    (2)
    Last edited by Nero; 06-13-2014 at 06:14 AM.

  2. #332
    Player
    Cynric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Uldah
    Posts
    1,215
    Character
    Cynric Caliburn
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Viper Lv 100
    That'd have to be a bit more recent as development style may have changed since then going by his more recent comment on naming the class thief but going with rogue instead.

    Also the japanese naming thematic really has nothing to do with ours.
    (0)

  3. #333
    Player
    Gilraen's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    2,489
    Character
    Gilraen Bior
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 70
    They are also pretty deluded in believing that a class ends at 30, which is completely bonkers given that classes keep gaining abilities up to level cap because the Jobs are equip items and not completely separate entities. If classes didn't then Bard wouldn't have Quelling Shots, Barrage, Blunt Arrow, Flaming Arrow, Wide Volley or such traits as Enhanced Dexterity III, Enhanced Quick Knock, Increased Action Damage II, Enhanced Barrage or River of Blood. That's alot of stuff for a class that's, "tossed aside at level 30." What does Bard give, then? Slightly better stats, three songs, Rain of Death and a long recast song buff at the low cost of archer's wide-range multi-classing.
    (0)

  4. #334
    Player
    Arkista's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,572
    Character
    Arkista Valentine
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Hollow_Tears View Post
    Did I miss some info somewhere where did/does it show scout or does scout mean rogue and no I did not read much of the previous posts.
    Yes its Rogue I screwed up the title, Didn't see the names on the pictures.
    (1)

  5. #335
    Player
    Transmigration's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    79
    Character
    Ava Alastrine
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilraen View Post
    They are also pretty deluded in believing that a class ends at 30, which is completely bonkers given that classes keep gaining abilities up to level cap because the Jobs are equip items and not completely separate entities. If classes didn't then Bard wouldn't have Quelling Shots, Barrage, Blunt Arrow, Flaming Arrow, Wide Volley or such traits as Enhanced Dexterity III, Enhanced Quick Knock, Increased Action Damage II, Enhanced Barrage or River of Blood. That's alot of stuff for a class that's, "tossed aside at level 30." What does Bard give, then? Slightly better stats, three songs, Rain of Death and a long recast song buff at the low cost of archer's wide-range multi-classing.
    UTILITY. A REASON FOR SOMEONE TO INVITE YOU TO A GROUP.
    (1)

  6. #336
    Player
    Kinseykinz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,274
    Character
    Isagael Rose
    World
    Sagittarius
    Main Class
    Botanist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Nero View Post
    Nope, it does not. IT does the same way like Gladiator is the "iconic" PLD, Conjurer is the "Iconic" WHM and so on, it simply is not. May read the Names of the Japanese Classes and you will realize something; it is nothing more than a definition of the Weapon Type. Out of that will branch the Jobs, just like PLD, WAR, NIN and whatever else is out there.

    You will never see SAM, BLU, RDM etc being a Class, since it just not fits the System of FFXIV. Regardless of THF being possible or not, Rogues IS NOT Thief. Rogues simply defines in the Japanese as "Dual Wield" User. And for those who say Rogue does play like THF, can you link me to the Traits and Abilities of Rogue? Since you obviously know more than everyone else. As far as it was explained, Rogue is using Stuff like Poisons, which i can't remember being a Major-Trait of the THF Job..

    Anyways.. this Discussion wont go anywhere...

    Sidenote, quote from Yoshi ( recent interview click):

    Also I do feel that scouting classes are lacking so I want to bring in Thief, Ninja and those that have to do with stealth. Also more casters like Blue Mage and Red Mage are something I would like to add.

    Interesting, isn't it? Yoshi is well aware of their own System and that Thief can't be a Class itself... so create out of that statement, whatever you like.



    Not really what SE said btw. They said Rogue's were original Thieves, so they lost their "specialization" over time.. guess what a Job is in FFXIV and branches from a "Weapon Type"? A specialization of a Class...
    First let me address your second point as it was in response to me. The gist of what they were saying back and forth was that they opted to name it Rogue because they didn't like feel of Thief as it related to the lore of the game. The lore of the game is already leading up to the Rogue/Ninja class....it was basically the end of the 2.2 mainstoryline. Now if you want to pretend they were just meaning 'THF can't be a class, but down the road, expect to see the job' FINE. I cannot stop you. But if that was the reason they would have said something like 'We opted for the Name Rogue vs. other iconic Role titles in the series as we wanted to leave them open for possible introduction in the future/wanted to preserve their iconic look. This is NOT however what was said.

    But to your Samurai, Redmage and crew points:

    Yes, Yoshi'd like to add them.....buuuuut: look at how nutso people went over this, now lets for a moment ponder the introduction of RDM (I'm using RDM as the example because it's probably the most demanded, and most 'It has to be like this!' in most peoples minds which is part of the reason it'll be so damn hard to implement- IE forgive the tangent, RDM and how/will it become a Job isn't my point....my point is more 'what needs to be considered' when decided this job can be put in game but this one cannot...or at least, currently cannot. ):

    First off. Lets talk about what this game actually allows:

    Red Mage as you say, would be a Job Not a class.
    Therefore, at level 50, it could ONLY have 5 specialized skills.

    Also, it would have to be based on either 2 current classes in game, or 2 new classes....either way though, it would have access to the entire skillset of it's 'primary' class AND use that classes weapons.

    So keeping this in mind, lets talk about what everyone really wants in a Red Mage:

    Red Mage-FF early years, was a caster that could equip some heavier armor, use swords,staves etc and had access to both WHM/BLM magic books. However, while it could do a little bit of all of this, it couldn't do any of the top tier skills of any of these roles. Furthermore, it was very 'individualized' The way you built your RDM and geared it could be very different than how I built mine....which is WHY so many fell in love with this role even back in Final Fantasy's earliest days. You could run 4xRDM and have different skills/specialities. across ALL of them...and this was very rare at the time.

    But FFXI influenced the 'RDM dreams' even more. Because when people talk about their FFXI days of RDM, they talk about solo-fights, and swords, and staffs, and main healing, and dding, and Convert, dual-wielding etc. The problem here is THIS game, doesn't allow for 1 party role to ever be that flexible. Hell if you really really looked at only RDM's skills from FFXI, and didn't account for all the cross-skills it could effectively use (from so many different subclass specs btw), you'd already be a little /disappoint. But still what people remember isn't 'RDM's skillset' they remember 'all the cool stuff I could do on RDM' But much of that relied on FFXI's Subjob system and cross skills, and how well they paired within the Red Mage toolkit, and when used well, could make some formidable builds.

    But this game isn't a solo player game. So balance matters
    And this game isn't based on the same subjob system/battle mechanics as FFXI.

    So how is SE supposed to give people the Red Mage they want, when by this role's very nature the reason people loved it SOOOO much was it's flexibility.

    For example:
    What weapon should a Red Mage have?
    -Sword?
    -Staff?
    -Scepter?
    -Something new?

    Already, there will be people going if it doesn't use a _________ it's not a RDM! Let's protest until they give it the 'proper' weapon.

    But, let's say they make it's weapon be a sword (probably what most ppl expect)

    Well currently, that means they'd have all the natural skills of a Gladiator.
    -Shield Lob...for a RDM....Rampart? Doesn't sound very 'Magey'.

    So most likely, RDM has to wait until at least a new class comes out, that uses swords and not so 'tanky'

    Lets call said class 'Fencer' cause why the hell not?
    -This would be a thin/pointy sword class so it'd fit the bill
    -Also as a new class, it would be free to have it's own skillset (mages have 16-18ish skills on their classes atm)

    - But New Problem:What 16 skills can you give this new class, that aren't represented by the existing classes AND support the sword/caster build.
    Some would say 'Well we don't have En-spells for weapons' We could use those!. Okay, but how will that work in this game as elm. resistances are far different. Furthermore, Monk already has this going on in their own way as their Fists of Fire,Earth,Air =different buffs. So how do you make it that it's not really just like monk, or pointless (elm builds). And if they do something like give EN spells, that raise party speed/ slow mobs etc...is that okay enough with people? Or will that cause more 'SE why did you do this??!!'
    Others would be like 'Dude, just give us DOTs and ENFEEBLES' Everyone knows that with some glaring (RDM specific btw) exceptions, that most of these are in game. So again, you run into the 'well if this CLASS can cast it and so can that one, how is that unique?' So this ave. probably doesn't work.
    This goes on and on.

    Even when you look at the job specifically, assuming they sorted out the class>Job problem: What are the 5 'must haves' for RDM
    Dia/Gravity/Banish/Poison/Chainspell? Convert belongs to the BLM's so you can't have that in this game.

    And then how do you suddenly make those 5 skills match up to a swordsmen role.

    What subjob =RDM.

    Is it CNJ? So they can heal/raise/Buff, but have limited DPS.
    Is it ACN? SO they can heal/raise/Buff,but only gain utility skills as ACN's DoT's don't cross-class, m(eyeforeye,physic,virus etc) wouldn't they just kinda be like at gimp, petless SMN w/ a sword?
    Is it THM? SO they can't heal or buff, but can't blow up stuff..as THMs list of cross-class skills is weak...or at least lacks DD spells (well you get bliz 2 yay).


    And if they build from a mage class, and have the melee as the support, then does the weapon tick people off?

    THIS is why RDM hasn't been added....because they need to figure out how to make it work, answer all those questions and give people as much as they can of RDM without making it either very weak and bland or OMG OP.


    How this relates to THF:
    THF in solo player games again, balance was less critical. Furthermore, how and when roles transitioned into other roles was more open.
    In FFXI- had once again, the support of the subjob system to fill in it's gaps and weaknesses. Once again, like the RDM (although to a lesser degree) part of the nostalgia for THF isn't in it's natural skillset, but in the awesome things they were able to do via the subjob system.

    So the biggest problem THF has in being implemented is:
    -how does it even stand out enough as a solo job to warrant development. IE what does it offer from a gameplay perspective that other roles don't....and is this beneficial to the game/would it balance.
    -of the 'iconic' skills it 'should' have, can these be implemented in a way that they wouldn't be either gimmicky, or FORCE 'everyone bring a THF!'

    Samurai Has no such problems. It can easily be implemented as either a DD or Tank role, and keep most SAM fans happy. So it is reasonable to expect to see it in the near future.

    But just because the Developer says 'I'm trying to introduce roles people have been asking about' doesn't mean it can/or will happen....or happen anytime soon. Even still, he listed 'types' of jobs...he didn't make specific promises...he was simply stating, yes I know there's interest in both 'stealthy' roles and 'hybrid caster' roles....the intent of that comment was NOT...I plan on adding these exact roles into the game. You might get 1, 2 or even all of them...but it's subject to development/lore and balance.
    (2)
    Last edited by Kinseykinz; 06-13-2014 at 03:44 PM.

  7. #337
    Player
    Kitru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,334
    Character
    Kitru Kitera
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Nero View Post
    5 you want?
    Yes, but you seem to have missed where I said "useful abilities that would not be absolutely positively broken".

    1) Steal

    Cast Instant, Recast 480, TP Cost 500

    Can steal an Item, which would drop from the Treasure Chest, after defeating it. Chance of Success: 10%
    You're providing an explicit economic advantage to the class and providing absolutely nothing for it's *real* job: killing stuff. Plus, the 8 minute CD and 500 TP cost basically make it unusable.

    2) Treasure Hunter

    Cast Instant, Recast 720, TP Cost 250

    Improves the successrate of Steal by 15%, lowers your defense by 15% in exchange.
    Another case of a 12 minute CD with a crazy high TP cost so that it's effectively unusable and, in fact, this is even worse design because you're just providing a longer term ability that exists purely to augment an existing single purpose ability. You're separating a single ability into 2 because you can't think of anything else.

    3) Sneak Attack

    Cast Instant, Recast 180, Duration 30 sec

    Must be executed from behind, with PT member between you and the Target.

    Increases your Atk by 15% if successfull, STR of the PT Member by 5%, lowers your defense by 15% if failed. Successrate: 70%
    3 min CD with incredibly limiting requirements. This isn't FFXI where people just stand around doing nothing for long periods of time waiting for tp so that they can actually attack. People actually *move* in FFXIV.

    4) Trick Attack

    Cast Instant, Recast 360, Duration 30 sec

    Must be executed from flank, with PT member between you and the Target.

    lowers your Atk by 15% if successfull, lowers Atk of the PT Member by 5%, increases Steal by 5% and next SA by 30%.
    Similarly limiting, even longer CD so that that there's even less reason to use it, plus the only value in it is increasing the value of an ability on a 3 min CD and actually penalizes your ally for "helping" you.

    5) Gil Toss

    Cast Instant, Recast 480, TP Cost 200

    Does throw a random number of Gil out of the PT total pool ( max 50k ) at the Enemy and in exchange can incease the Droprate of rare Items. In example Mounts.
    I have no idea how you can *imagine* this to be anything resembling a balanced ability. This would make it so that THF is effectively *required* for running absolutely anything because you're having it modify drop rates.

    Lol.. i made those up in like what? 2 Minutes? The 5 Job Abilities can change the Class and its gameplayA LOT.
    I'm curious how exactly an 8 min CD with a 12 min "buff" to it, a 3 min extremely restricted CD with a 6 minute extremely limited buff, and a ridiculously broken 8 min CD that doesn't affect your combat capabilities in the *least* affect gameplay. You're acting as if *Hallowed Ground* fundamentally changes how PLD plays compared to GLA (here's a hint: it doesn't mainly because it's on a 7 minute CD). You couldn't even come up with abilities that fulfilled the two qualifications I put up there: they needed to actually be *useful* without being broken as hell (and, yes, providing one class/job with explicit loot advantages/modification capabilities is *broken as hell*).

    With those abilities, THF would *still* be using all of the same attacks as ROG, which means that it would still share almost everything it does with NIN. You didn't do jack shit to prove me wrong. Hell, you actually proved me *correct*.

    Also, requiring you to attack through your allies is just stupid as hell. Seriously, FFXI was an absolutely horribly designed game. Stop trying to mimic it.

    I'm going to sit here waiting for you to not completely fumble it when you try again. If you keep trying to have THF be based around gaining more loots, the THF you're aiming for isn't a DoW class: it's a DoL.
    (3)

  8. #338
    Player
    LoLo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Limsa
    Posts
    604
    Character
    Lolo Landerlu
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    People who usually say stop trying to make this game into FFXI, have never played it before. They hate the game out of ignorance. Adding a single job into this game doesn't equal making the game into FFXI. How can people who are not interesting in playing a Thief Job write a wall of text that makes no sense as to why Thief can't be added to this game? None of it is even logical. The weak reasoning of Thief not fitting into lore was just nothing but bull because there a Pirates freely walking around throught the city. There are scammers, dancers, and prositutes in Uldah and Limsa, Black magic/ hint of Necromancing as well is in Uldah (1.0 had tons of this). A main character in Uldah died during the storyline as well. But having thieves in this game is just so hard to imagine? Or is it just a lazy way to dismiss it without thinking hard enough?

    The hate of adding Thief from the two people posting above all stems from them thinking having an additional DD job will prevent them from getting their future ques. Which will only be 2 weeks after any DD job ever gets released. They can't prevent Dark Knight, Samurai, Gunner, ect from coming so they still will have to deal with those ques. They don't have to play the job, but they are so concerned about other people playing it. What a sad outlook.
    (1)
    Last edited by LoLo; 06-13-2014 at 08:11 PM.

  9. #339
    Player
    MartaDemireux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,044
    Character
    Hiraeth Petrichor
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Nero View Post
    Rogues simply defines in the Japanese as "Dual Wield" User.
    Just gotta nitpick that it is "Twinblade User" in Japanese. Twinblades are generally defined as a type of sword as opposed to a dagger (although sometimes daggers are incorporated depending on the game/show). As we've seen with their reveal they're going with the sword variant for FFXIV. Long, curved blades do not a dagger make.

    From purely a weapons standpoint, with the addition of this new weapon type I'd say Thief would stand a greater chance to stem from Gladiator even if the gameplay of Twinblades could suit it better thematically. Gladiator gets the daggers which is unfortunate but true and Thief has historically been able to make use of shields/bucklers.
    (0)
    * I fully give permission for any of my written ideas to be used by SE without recognition.

  10. #340
    Player
    LoLo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Limsa
    Posts
    604
    Character
    Lolo Landerlu
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Rogue may be a dual wield but it is only in looks and not in damage or stats. You can not equip two different weapons to gain additional stats like actual dual wielding usually plays in games. The weapons plays more like a monk so why not say... Why is there a Rogue because its weapons play more like hand to hand than actual dual wielding.
    (0)

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