NINJA and ROGUE confirmed

[Nalien]

In the very first Final Fantasy, Thief upgraded into Ninja too.

Better demote White Mage, Black Mage, Red Mage and Monk to Classes, and delete Marauder/Warrior and change Gladiator to Warrior while we're at it, then.

I also notice that Kitru posted a challenge for Thief advocates to make a Thief job that isn't overpowered or worthless and there was only one challenger. Why is this?

Well, I posted a concept for a Rikku inspired Thief ages ago, but as a whole we're not payed developers, nor is there much point coming up with anything until we know Rogues move set. I'm certainly not going to fully balance and flesh out a concept just to "win" an argument on the internet.

And yes, the whole argument for Thief is effectively fighting for a name, as I have said ad nauseum though; the whole reason we have Jobs in FFXIV at all is because people wanted the named Jobs.

Seriously, how often do I need to repeat that simple point? Jobs were only introduced because they're iconic to the series. Thief is a Job iconic to the series since its inception. Please put two and two together or stop posting. There is absolutely no reason, with the Job system literally doing nothing but adding a name, gear, and a few iconic skills, that Thief cannot come of Rogue. Ninja is already set to be distinctive from Rogue with its combinations of hand signs to produce Ninjitus anyway, that can give it a much bigger skill pool than 5. If it only gets 3 hand signs, then that's already plenty of different Ninjitsu skills it could have. But again, we'd need the specifics on the Class/Job to say for certain.

Seriously, the only reason we have Paladin and White Mage and Black Mage, is because "from a *developmental* standpoint" people demanded FFXIV have classic Jobs in it. That's it. The whole reason we have Jobs is so people can go "Look, White Mage! This must be a Final Fantasy game!". That. Is. It.

Ruling out Thief is effectively the same as ruling out Red Mage, or Scholar, or any of the Jobs people could say are "too similar" or "don't bring enough". Why add new Tanks or Healers? They'll fundamentally be the same, just with a different name, look and flavour to their skills. Why add any new DPS? What is Samurai going to do that Lancer doesn't already? Wield a different weapon? Just give Lancer a Yari type weapon and save the development time, or will Gil Toss suddenly work in XIV? Why add Blue Mage? It'll just be doing magic damage like Black Mage. Blue Mage actually has more issues than Thief would, since the spell learning mechanic would require much more development time. Just slap some Blue Mage gear for Thaumaturge and tell everyone to pretend Fire is a generic Blue Mage skill. No need to add any new Jobs for that matter, just tell everyone to "pretend" that the existing Jobs are the ones they want. Want Geomancer? Pretend Conjurer is Geomancer. Want Ranger? Pretend Archer is Ranger. Want Beastmaster? Pretend Arcanist charms Squirrels. If these examples sound absurd, then good. They are. Just like telling people to pretend Ninja is Thief is.

[Exstal]

If Thief does come, it won't be from Rogue. It's as simple as that, really. You need a fundamentally different gameplay style so that it doesn't play the same as Ninja. It's really irrelevant how much one wants to say Thief (as a job) would play different from Ninja if it came from Rogue. Given how, for example, Gladiator / Paladin is 80% GLA/20% PLD and even that 20% is only for a few skills. The challenge is making that 20% so drastically different for two jobs.

Ruling out Thief is effectively the same as ruling out Red Mage, or Scholar, or any of the Jobs people could say are "too similar" or "don't bring enough".

This is simply not true. Look. Thief from Rogue would just be a DPS class. What is Ninja? A DPS class that is heavily invested in Rogue. So how would you make it different? Answer: You can't with the limited job skills we have now (50 cap).

Why add new Tanks or Healers? They'll fundamentally be the same, just with a different name, look and flavour to their skills.

For a different playstyle. That's the only reason you had new classes/jobs. Based on this logic, there is no reason to have Paladin and Warrior. You only need 1 person to take hits.

Why add any new DPS? What is Samurai going to do that Lancer doesn't already? Wield a different weapon? Just give Lancer a Yari type weapon and save the development time, or will Gil Toss suddenly work in XIV?

Again, play style difference. Samurai won't use jump, probably have a move set revolving around their iconic weapon type, probably. Then, it might even be our pseudo-evasion tank. This comparison is poor.

Why add Blue Mage? It'll just be doing magic damage like Black Mage. Blue Mage actually has more issues than Thief would, since the spell learning mechanic would require much more development time. Just slap some Blue Mage gear for Thaumaturge and tell everyone to pretend Fire is a generic Blue Mage skill.

You're right. Why add Blue Mage? There's no reason to add it aside from some people wanting it. Cool. There are classes that I want but unlikely to happen, just gotta deal with it.

No need to add any new Jobs for that matter, just tell everyone to "pretend" that the existing Jobs are the ones they want. Want Geomancer? Pretend Conjurer is Geomancer. Want Ranger? Pretend Archer is Ranger. Want Beastmaster? Pretend Arcanist charms Squirrels. If these examples sound absurd, then good. They are. Just like telling people to pretend Ninja is Thief is.

I think you get the reoccurring theme here; different play style.
-Want Geomancer? Wait for the development team to make a class that uses Geomancy.
-Want Ranger? Define it first because Archer currently has their main skills
-Want Beastmaster? See if development team even cares to put it in

No one is saying Ninja is Thief. No one even thinks like that. The argument is really, really simple. Thief, if implemented, can only come a long time down the road, when there are sufficient job skills to sufficiently differentiate jobs from each other so that the class isn't the driving force. However, if you choose to ignore this part then you have no place arguing in favour of two jobs stemming from same base class because you're being willfully ignorant of the FFXIV class system.

SCH manages to be quite different from SMN with only 5 skills.

ACN (DPS) => SMN (DPS) / SCH (Heal)

Different roles have different focuses. Compare SCH DPS to SMN DPS. What differences do they have? Fester and a DPS pet. What similarities? Everything else.

[Nalien]

No one is saying Ninja is Thief.

You're kidding, right? Plenty of people throughout this thread have been claiming that, since Ninja comes from Rogue, and Rogue "is" Thief, you can just play Ninja as Thief (with Glamours) and ignore the 5 Ninja skills. It's been a very common argument from team "No Thief!", actually...

Having Thief come off Rogue really isn't impossible either. We already know every Class will eventually have two Jobs, even if the developers don't drastically alter the system to allow that properly, something like Archer can have Bard and Ranger. Ranger would simply be pure DPS, while Bard throws in so support at the cost of DPS. Why could they not, for example, do the same thing with Ninja and Thief? Ninjitsu doesn't have to be offensive (in fact one of the most well known ones isn't), alternative you could take the old role Thief had very literally; stealing to help the party, and make Thief a semi-support Job. Instead of stealing gear, potions and items, it could simply work a different way, while still maintaining the steal motif. If you take Ninja as the semi-support role, then it's actually in a better position than Bard already; 3 Songs does not a Bard make, but 3 skills to make combinations to make Ninjitus? That's potential for a lot of Ninjitsu from just 3 skills.

You'll probably disagree with Archer getting Ranger though, since Archer already has Rangers skills. Because it's not like Conjurer has White Mages skills already; first skill that comes to mind when I think of White Mage is Cure, at least.

Best way I think though, is to make Ninja a pure DPS, and Thief a semi-support Job, and they can do that easily with a Steal/Use mechanic. First skill could be Steal, which provides you with a unique effect based on the rarity of what you stole, and the enemy, it could even be detrimental. Next skill is Use, which lets you give that effect to the target. Very similar to my earlier suggestion, but much simpler. The other skills, like Paladin and White Mage etc., could just be generic MMO skills. You could still give them a Thief style twist though; an ability that converts the status effect into "Gil" (you sell it) which you then throw at the enemy, seeing as Gil Toss can never decide if its a Thief or Samurai skill.

exept no, thief will never come out, pointless to talk of it for age... why? because steal is not doable into FF14. you can argue and say, yes but they can steal stats for help the team.... how it will work?
some example: you steal VIT from a boss, if is fixed number, on some fight it will be pointless, if it's a % it will be overpowered on monster with high hp pool. and who say steal means you have it. if you steal this VIT and the stats come back, the hp will still be lost... why steal more than one time?

I was thinking... Well, I've already posted how I'd think Steal could work in a MMO. Several times now.

Don't let that stop you strawmaning a pathetic VIT Steal mechanic in place of what I've suggested, though.

the example about ranger/archer, conjurer/white mage is soo silly.

How so? The majority of White Mages spell list comes from Conjurer, not White Mage. If you say Ranger can't come off Archer because Archer has Rangers skills, then the same should be true of Conjurer and White Mage. Fact of the matter is, even if the Class has it's skills, they can still add a Job to it, because once again and I am tired of saying this; Jobs literally only exist to provide the name and iconic imagery.

To quote Exstal;

-Want Ranger? Define it first because Archer currently has their main skills

Want White Mage? Define it first because Conjurer currently has their main skills.

[silentwindfr]

snips

exept no, thief will never come out, pointless to talk of it for age... why? because steal is not doable into FF14. you can argue and say, yes but they can steal stats for help the team.... how it will work?
some example: you steal VIT from a boss, if is fixed number, on some fight it will be pointless, if it's a % it will be overpowered on monster with high hp pool. and who say steal means you have it. if you steal this VIT and the stats come back, the hp will still be lost... why steal more than one time?

that the main trouble of the thief, it's nice in 1 player rpg... but the thief of FF series can't be used in mmorpg, because all they have is stealing! is not enough for make a jobs! a jobs need more deepth. indeed right now we only have 5 skill as jobs class, but what will happend when the level cap will be raised? maybe we will only get jobs skill.

the example about ranger/archer, conjurer/white mage is soo silly.

[Exstal]

You're kidding, right? Plenty of people throughout this thread have been claiming that, since Ninja comes from Rogue, and Rogue "is" Thief, you can just play Ninja as Thief (with Glamours) and ignore the 5 Ninja skills. It's been a very common argument from team "No Thief!", actually...

To be fair, they aren't saying Ninja is Thief. But Rogue is, but I guess since all classes are jobs, they are indirectly saying it.

Having Thief come off Rogue really isn't impossible either. We already know every Class will eventually have two Jobs, even if the developers don't drastically alter the system to allow that properly, something like Archer can have Bard and Ranger. Ranger would simply be pure DPS, while Bard throws in so support at the cost of DPS. Why could they not, for example, do the same thing with Ninja and Thief?

Because if you did it that way, Ranger would be massively overpowered and be the only class that you play. Bard is balanced to against other DPS classes. So if you decide to add Ranger into the mix the Archer base class needs nerfs across to the board while simultaneously buffing Bard's job skills to make up for the deficit.

Ninjitsu doesn't have to be offensive (in fact one of the most well known ones isn't), alternative you could take the old role Thief had very literally; stealing to help the party, and make Thief a semi-support Job. Instead of stealing gear, potions and items, it could simply work a different way, while still maintaining the steal motif. If you take Ninja as the semi-support role, then it's actually in a better position than Bard already; 3 Songs does not a Bard make, but 3 skills to make combinations to make Ninjitus? That's potential for a lot of Ninjitsu from just 3 skills.

So basically make Thief as needed as Bard because of support. Cool. It still won't change the gameplay difference between itself and Ninja because your rotations are almost always based on how your class plays and not the job.

You'll probably disagree with Archer getting Ranger though, since Archer already has Rangers skills. Because it's not like Conjurer has White Mages skills already; first skill that comes to mind when I think of White Mage is Cure, at least.

Of course I'd disagree with Archer getting Ranger.

Best way I think though, is to make Ninja a pure DPS, and Thief a semi-support Job, and they can do that easily with a Steal/Use mechanic. First skill could be Steal, which provides you with a unique effect based on the rarity of what you stole, and the enemy, it could even be detrimental. Next skill is Use, which lets you give that effect to the target. Very similar to my earlier suggestion, but much simpler. The other skills, like Paladin and White Mage etc., could just be generic MMO skills. You could still give them a Thief style twist though; an ability that converts the status effect into "Gil" (you sell it) which you then throw at the enemy, seeing as Gil Toss can never decide if its a Thief or Samurai skill.

This is the same problem as Ranger / Bard foolishness. Ninja will be balanced against other DPS (DRG/MNK/BLM/SMN/BRD) while THF's support skills have to be good enough that it allows them to compete in DPS. How do you determine that? Make those skills either really strong and give a very good raid increase.

How so? The majority of White Mages spell list comes from Conjurer, not White Mage. If you say Ranger can't come off Archer because Archer has Rangers skills, then the same should be true of Conjurer and White Mage. Fact of the matter is, even if the Class has it's skills, they can still add a Job to it, because once again and I am tired of saying this; Jobs literally only exist to provide the name and iconic imagery.

To quote Exstal;

-Want Ranger? Define it first because Archer currently has their main skills

Want White Mage? Define it first because Conjurer currently has their main skills.

Don't misrepresent my statement. There is no job skill that Ranger could get that Archer doesn't already have, whereas White Mage received Holy. Ranger's iconic skills; Aim, Barrage. What does Archer have as base skills? Aim, Barrage. Now, nothing's impossible but it's not like devs have a whole lot of time to bring jobs that would be redundant so quickly. Bring out other wanted classes that need to fill the void first then we can backtrack to other things.

For example, let's see Dark Knight, Samurai, Red Mage, Geomancer and Dancer make an appearance before we go back and play with Thief (because Rogue/Ninja) and Ranger (because Archer/Bard). Doing it now is a waste of resources to have two of the same type of job that have nothing new to bring to the play style.

once again and I am tired of saying this; Jobs literally only exist to provide the name and iconic imagery.

And finally, they don't have to bring every job into the game.

On a side note; I'm stoked for Ninja. Monk is probably my second favourite class because of dual wield, and I can jump on people's head? Awesome.

Three Thief job ideas have been posted in this thread, that I've seen anyway.

I'll grant you 2/3 because the one by Nero is overpowered and worthless.

[LoLo]

Nalien I like you idea. I think it would be cool if a Thief Job could steal stats from a monster and temporary debuff the mob as well as buff the entire party with whatever stats are stolen. Also I think it would be extra cool to have a Thief that could us a boomerang as a range attack action. Plus maybe stealing keys off mobs to open doors in instance dungeons would be super fun. There are so many things to think of to make Thief work.

[Bigpurpleharness]

I'm truly surprised you're still arguing with the people who keep touting, "People who want thief just want a name change, herp derp."

Isn't it obvious by now they're either ignorantly or intentionally ignoring your arguments? There have been pages addressing their points, they manage to make ONE post that isn't, "You just want a name change! It wouldn't add anything!", and then go right back to their circular argument.

[Toonz]

guys stop whining and suck it up if want thf so badly don't ever use the ninja stone and u can be a rogue all the way to 50 and be hated by everyone you come across have fun with that

[MartaDemireux]

I just wanted to point out that in a recent interview Yoshi said that ROG and NIN will receive different drops from primals. This means that either they're making the first viable instance of using a class over a job or perhaps we'll be seeing a 2nd job coming from ROG as well either in secret at 2.3 or shortly after release. My bet would be placed on ROG getting a 2nd job as SMN/ACN get different weapons than SCH from primals. Perhaps THF tank will be a reality and be the expansion's announced tank afterall! Or, perhaps just another DPS that plays differently thank NIN.

Three Thief job ideas have been posted in this thread, that I've seen anyway.

I had one either in this thread or another (so hard to keep track with all the similar threads!) that made THF a tank as well. Found it:

Essentially what I expect:

Rogue/Scout (DPS):
Stealth/Hide (PvP: blocked out or have very short duration)
Attacks focus on hitting from behind. Fast, critical hitter.
Buffs to evasion.
Steal & Swipe but won't steal items. Perhaps used in mechanic for other abilities or temporary potions. Only usable while in stealth.
Accomplice - equalize the enmity of you and another player.
Flee - increased movement speed, stacks with sprint but not with Swiftsong.

Ninja (DPS):
30: Throw - Ranged attack.
35: Blitz - AoE lightning damage.
40: Water Veil - Ranged water damage and silence.
45: Smoke Bomb - Ranged damage and Blind.
50: Mirage/Utsusemi - Buff that allows your back attack bonuses to be applied at any direction. Allows short duration of stealth while in combat. Bonus damage while in stealth.

Thief (Tank):
30: Vigilance: Tank enmity/mitigation stance. Allows counter-attacks. Changes some class abilities to generate enmity. Adds a mechanic to theft type abilities and can be used while not in stealth. Steal upgrades to Mug, Swipe to Pillage for increased enmity and added damage. Accomplice takes some of the other players enmity and adds it to your own etc.
35: Life Steal/Pilfer HP: Steals HP from target. High enmity.
40: Detect: Anticipates attacks for reduced/nullified damage.
45: Larceny: Steal an active buff from target. If no buff steals TP and deals critical damage. High enmity.
50: Perfect Dodge: Long cooldown 100% mitigation.

Thief varied a lot in other games so it can be changed significantly in this one like they did with Scholar.

But certain people are insisting that THF must be a DPS because it's coming from a DPS class (SCH says "Hello") or that it must be DPS because it has been considered as such before (WAR says "Hello") and obviously jobs can't have a different role than they have in the past (BRD says "Hello"). Several current MMO's use the stealty tank archetype successfully. We definitely need a different tank archetype in this game. We have the standard sword and shield and the 2-handed versions both heavily armored and pretty much just eating all the hits. Boring!

It honestly sounds like they're already making NIN a very different playstyle than ROG as it is. I'm guessing the entire mudra system is NIN exclusive.

As far as the RNG argument:

RNG could play entirely different than ARC/BRD. Instead of shooting in running they could stand still while shooting for increased damage via a draw gauge which increases the damage depending on how tight you've been drawing your bow; Animals can make a reappearance from FFV to add extra damage and/or support; Trapping can be utilized from the tactics series; We have abilities that aren't used too often such as Shadowbind and Repelling Shot which could be given their own mechanics. Possibilities are nearly endless.

[Zoeila]

id be more interested in an assassin than an actual thf