Battle Reform: Enmity (07/06/2011)

[Cueball]

kind of pointless to me, almost like they need to tell you everything at this point, its exact level, if it agros, and now how much agro you have. Emenity in FFXI was just obvious, any halfway decent player understood how it worked and didnt need things like this.

I agree with the fact that now were being shown what our emenity is doesn't allow the players to really understand how to controll their emenity. Were being given threat meters because more players now days like having this kinda of gauge. I personally would enjoy the game more if I had to learn on my own what the threshold is of pulling hate or not.

[Perrin_Aybarra]

I agree with the fact that now were being shown what our emenity is doesn't allow the players to really understand how to controll their emenity. Were being given threat meters because more players now days like having this kinda of gauge. I personally would enjoy the game more if I had to learn on my own what the threshold is of pulling hate or not.

Which without a meter you would NEVER be able to guess regardless of your l33tness. You cannot know how close you are of pulling aggro without meter for one reason: you cannot compare yourself to the tank. Without a meter you would never be able to know how much hold the tank has on a boss (mob) even if you were the best player that has ever existed.

So saying you would prefer guess what the threshold of pulling hate would be, is really just not understanding the basic of it. You could never play at 100% of what your class could pull of since you wouldn't be able to judge at X time where you stand compared to the tank. You would not be able to guess it unless you spend your time reading the combat log to see what the tank does, which would still impair your skill.

And I can even push it saying that no meter makes the game easier in a way. Being a DD you could just stay safe and go about using your abilities slowly so you don't pull hate (since you are just guessing you never know how far from it you actually are). With the meter, you have only your stupidity as an excuse for not playing your class right and doing as much dmg as you can without pulling hate. So the meter seperates the bad players from the good players who can read an analyze an enmity meter.

It's much easier to not have a meter and play safe than having a meter and pushing yourself to the limit.

[Kiote]

There seems to be this running assumption that Being in the Top 5% of WoW players requires a high level of skill..

It's not a hating on WoW thing, it the reason I hate WoW. It requires no Skill.. At all.. Your Top 5% of players are not good players, they are players with the most time.. WoW requires two things to win, Timie and Bodies. As long as you have 8 hours and enough people to throw at mobs you cant lose.

The Argument that the 5% most skilled players in WoW like an Enmity meter is ridiculous. I dont even care about the stupid meter I'm not gonna pay attention to it anyway. But don't tell us that we should do things cause WoW does them. Then tell us that WoW BS subs numbers are proof to your point. Then tell us that the 5% of people best at playing WoW, the easiest game on earth, should have any bearing on our game.

If this game only ever has 100,000 players and ten servers so be it. I would rather have a small good game than a mindless joke like WoW.

[Perrin_Aybarra]

WoW requires two things to win, Timie and Bodies. As long as you have 8 hours and enough people to throw at mobs you cant lose.

I don't want to defend WoW or start a debate on skill or a FFXI vs WoW debate. But this is the most retarded statement. You probably don't play WoW, which I don't blame you for lol. But if anything that statement applies more to FFXI than WoW.

WoW bosses last 10-15mins because most of them have a rage timer which wipes the raid if you don't kill before. Nothing in that game take 8hr to complete. And you have a maximum of 25 ppl in raids (with the choice of doing 10man or 25man version). So your statement is just stupid.

In FFXI, for HNMs you needed alliances plus most of them took over 1hr to kill (someone mentioned Vtra being something like 6hrs? can't remember but it was riddiculous... as if someone would like to waste their time for 6hr straight on a boss fight)And you can, if I remember, change people in mid fight. So your statement applies here, it did not require skill, it required time and bodies and a lot of kiting.

That said, I do have fond memories of FFXI, loved the BCNMs, Missions, CoP and all but the HNMs fights that lasted for hours and that the only skill was on the claiming part was just something I wish will never be repeated in another MMO.

[Cueball]

Which without a meter you would NEVER be able to guess regardless of your l33tness. You cannot know how close you are of pulling aggro without meter for one reason: you cannot compare yourself to the tank. Without a meter you would never be able to know how much hold the tank has on a boss (mob) even if you were the best player that has ever existed.

So saying you would prefer guess what the threshold of pulling hate would be, is really just not understanding the basic of it. You could never play at 100% of what your class could pull of since you wouldn't be able to judge at X time where you stand compared to the tank. You would not be able to guess it unless you spend your time reading the combat log to see what the tank does, which would still impair your skill.

And I can even push it saying that no meter makes the game easier in a way. Being a DD you could just stay safe and go about using your abilities slowly so you don't pull hate (since you are just guessing you never know how far from it you actually are). With the meter, you have only your stupidity as an excuse for not playing your class right and doing as much dmg as you can without pulling hate. So the meter seperates the bad players from the good players who can read an analyze an enmity meter.

It's much easier to not have a meter and play safe than having a meter and pushing yourself to the limit.

Having a icon telling you when your going to pull hate only allows you to spam abilities until your about to pull hate, then simply maintain this amount of emenity. This doesn't seem very fun to me, IMO.

If you don't have any way of knowing what your emenity is IMO you must play with more awareness and know your class and understand how much emenity your skills are producing and thus use your experience to judge where the threshold is. This is how to separate the good players from the bad or inexperienced. This then presents an opportunity to help those players and also builds possible friendships. ^.^v

[Perrin_Aybarra]

Having a icon telling you when your going to pull hate only allows you to spam abilities until your about to pull hate, then simply maintain this amount of emenity. This doesn't seem very fun to me, IMO.

If you don't have any way of knowing what your emenity is IMO you must play with more awareness and know your class and understand how much emenity your skills are producing and thus use your experience to judge where the threshold is. This is how to separate the good players from the bad or inexperienced. This then presents an opportunity to help those players and also builds possible friendships. ^.^v

Not all true either. You still need to learn what your abilities/spells do enmity-wise so that depending on what color is your enmity meter you know what is ok for you to do. Like I said earlier :

That's not true, it's extremely useful. It's not red omg the mob is hitting me! It's red then if you keep going it will be blinking red which is when the mob is on you.

So if you get to red that's when you say to yourself "ok I should slack off a bit and let the tank build some more enmity".

When it's orange you tell yourself "I can keep going but I should not do anything that generates too much enmity".

When it's green well, you let hell loose and throw your best stuff at the mob.

That's where learning how to play comes in. Green is fine, but orange and red you need to make sure that you know what your abilities/spells does enmity-wise so that you don't go from orange to blinking red in a spell.

People who think this is an "easy button" just don't understand what a enmity icon do. The game won't become easy and people won't suddenly know how to play their class if they don't take the time t learn it. Especially with such a non specific meter as a 3 colors (4 if you count blinking) meter.

[DeadRiser]

Won't seem that bad. I like the idea of having a little meter, but when it will be implemented... does ANYONE know?

[Cueball]

Not all true either. You still need to learn what your abilities/spells do enmity-wise so that depending on what color is your enmity meter you know what is ok for you to do. Like I said earlier :

Will agree to disagree, I feel this kinda of tool tip icon is unnecessary. What happens when someone pulls hate? The whole group says, "Why'd you pull hate? Can't you read your icon?" And everyone expects perfection because we have this icon guide.

When you have no icon and someone pulls hate, this gives the tank an opportunity to flex his tanking abilities and regain the mobs attention. With an emenity gauge in place, anyone pulling hate will be frowned upon.

[kukurumei]

Which without a meter you would NEVER be able to guess regardless of your l33tness. You cannot know how close you are of pulling aggro without meter for one reason: you cannot compare yourself to the tank. Without a meter you would never be able to know how much hold the tank has on a boss (mob) even if you were the best player that has ever existed.

So saying you would prefer guess what the threshold of pulling hate would be, is really just not understanding the basic of it. You could never play at 100% of what your class could pull of since you wouldn't be able to judge at X time where you stand compared to the tank. You would not be able to guess it unless you spend your time reading the combat log to see what the tank does, which would still impair your skill.

And I can even push it saying that no meter makes the game easier in a way. Being a DD you could just stay safe and go about using your abilities slowly so you don't pull hate (since you are just guessing you never know how far from it you actually are). With the meter, you have only your stupidity as an excuse for not playing your class right and doing as much dmg as you can without pulling hate. So the meter seperates the bad players from the good players who can read an analyze an enmity meter.

It's much easier to not have a meter and play safe than having a meter and pushing yourself to the limit.

No the meter makes it easier, it's the devs that have to go in and spend massive effort to raise the bar.

Why do you think it's call tank and spank? Because there is no mistake when there's a pretty little bar that tells-assist you to never make that mistake.

Thus the developers knowing that you will not make that mistake have to smoke and mirror gimmick you lose in different fashion.

And why you may even naively think "well that's great, make devs work harder". No it's not, because that's like saying "build walls higher" or "make armor thicker". It's more resources with little extra reward, and in terms of the very limited resources of FF14. a 1-3 month content rotation turns into a 3-6 month content rotation.

That's why gimmicks are dangerous, you can't keep reusing it, and you can't just keep thinking great new ones.

It's a developer problem, that will eventually fall back to a player problem.

And since this isn't anything new I can tell you already about 2/3 rds of the gimmicks they will be using. It gets pretty obvious and boring after a while. There are just so many ways to trick enmity meters, that's been discovered to be "fun".

Sadly, I'm not betting on FF14 developers be the good at creative content given their history, which is why I have no idea why they have something so obstructive as a hate meter.

Do you want to play quiz shows with people that can google infront of them...no way. Half your questions are worthless.

[Capita]

There seems to be this running assumption that Being in the Top 5% of WoW players requires a high level of skill..

It's not a hating on WoW thing, it the reason I hate WoW. It requires no Skill.. At all.. Your Top 5% of players are not good players, they are players with the most time.. WoW requires two things to win, Timie and Bodies. As long as you have 8 hours and enough people to throw at mobs you cant lose.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You've obviously never played WoW and are only going by what random people who only played to level cap are saying. You have no idea how hard the endgame is in that game, or the fact that even the most skilled players who even get PAID (read: sponsored) to compete can't beat a lot of the dungeons until months after it has been released.

Most time? I think you're confusing WoW with FFXI. It was perfectly possible to accomplish every endgame feature of WoW playing only 4 hours a day and 3 days a week if you were good enough. But that was the catch. There were people who only played 4 hours/day, 3 days/week and were good enough to get everything done, and there were people who played 12 hours/day, 7 days/week and couldn't get past the 4th boss.

So please get a clue before you attempt to sound like you know anything.