Battle Reform: Enmity (07/06/2011)

[Zanfire]

Well, why do you all have HP bars on enemies and damage displays? A true skillful player is able to calculate how close to death a mob is AND how much damage each attack does without all that.

In fact, let's just get hid of HP, MP and TP bars for players as well; we should know when we are able to use our abilities and how close to death we are.

And why do enemies start glowing when they're preparing a special move? I, as a skillful player, do not require such easy mode hand holding.

Heck, I don't even know why we have a map at all!

Please SE, I fear all these UI "additions" are hurting my overal gameplay experience and turning this game into a ridiculously easy game; please completely remove all information from my UI, so I can guesstimate how much of a hardcore, extremely skillful player I am, and not have my immersion broken by such useless things like an easy-modo action bar that let me easily choose which moves I'm gonna use.

Thanks.

Theres a pretty big difference between things that have been in MMOs (hell rpgs in general) since it was invented and what is now being put in to appeal to casual players. We got along without all this crap pre- WoW (some of its not even in WoW, others came later) so yah, dont try and play that BS up. There is a difference between game mechanics and additions to make things "more convenient"

[Malakhim]

Guys, the internet is easy mode. Get your asses to a library, you lazy dorks.

Why back in my day *mumble* *mumble*... ZzzZzzZzz

[Kailok]

Im sorry, but id prefer not having a "this tank sucks button" it just doesnt promote learning. Nor does it help if someone else is not doing so good and it makes it seem like the tank sucks. besides, you can only see your hate, so its not like you could tell whos blowing it.

As for the RL example....being a meh one in the first place, the one thing you failed to mention is...the training wheels come off at some point, in all senarios. So do we stop having the agro icon later, or we stuck with training wheels and mommy holding our hands the whole damn time?

Actually the indicator does promote learning. By using the indicator you would learn: X spell/ability = Y amount of hate. From this information you can learn how to use your class more efficiently (in the terms of efficiency for both the party and for your own damage output) as well as Tanks being able to gauge which ability they should use.

So yes, it's a learning experience. Experienced tanks will already know, but this helps new players who maybe never played a tanking class before learn how to best gain control over the hate of the mob. Once I'm level 50 I won't expect a new player to be as good at that class as I am. It helps to become part of the learning experience as a whole.

Also, I don't think this will completely make it so that battles won't suddenly turn batshit crazy. Just because you have an indicator doesn't mean that it will gimp your damage. Sure, you can make the choice to handle your hate like a good DD should, but I'm sure TP abilities still will give the tank a rough time. It's not like it's going to make things auto-win. It doesn't MAKE you provoke. It doesn't MAKE you better. It helps you learn to control yourself.

[Zanfire]

Actually the indicator does promote learning. By using the indicator you would learn: X spell/ability = Y amount of hate. From this information you can learn how to use your class more efficiently (in the terms of efficiency for both the party and for your own damage output) as well as Tanks being able to gauge which ability they should use.

So yes, it's a learning experience. Experienced tanks will already know, but this helps new players who maybe never played a tanking class before learn how to best gain control over the hate of the mob. Once I'm level 50 I won't expect a new player to be as good at that class as I am. It helps to become part of the learning experience as a whole.

Also, I don't think this will completely make it so that battles won't suddenly turn batshit crazy. Just because you have an indicator doesn't mean that it will gimp your damage. Sure, you can make the choice to handle your hate like a good DD should, but I'm sure TP abilities still will give the tank a rough time. It's not like it's going to make things auto-win. It doesn't MAKE you provoke. It doesn't MAKE you better. It helps you learn to control yourself.

For me its never been about the 1 thing, its been about them adding all of these things together...and im damn sure there is more to come. If all they had was the agro thing, eh i wouldnt mind, but when you add that with exact levels and my least favorite, the agro icon (i really dont like that one, Thats a real easy button) it all starts to add up to making the game feel too easy, when its already quite simple as is.

[Spellstar]

For me its never been about the 1 thing, its been about them adding all of these things together...and im damn sure there is more to come. If all they had was the agro thing, eh i wouldnt mind, but when you add that with exact levels and my least favorite, the agro icon (i really dont like that one, Thats a real easy button) it all starts to add up to making the game feel too easy, when its already quite simple as is.

Then vote with your feet and walk away. You are obviously wishing this game is something it is not and never will be. /wave

[Kailok]

Then vote with your feet and walk away. You are obviously wishing this game is something it is not and never will be. /wave

I don't mean to sound like a jerk but that kind of "don't like it, get out" attitude isn't something this community needs. We already have barely enough people playing, don't need more leaving. I wish everyone in this community (even me sometimes, I'm not talking about anyone in particular) would stop defending their opinions to the death and try to see things from another perspective sometimes. Just sayin', that's all.

For me its never been about the 1 thing, its been about them adding all of these things together...and im damn sure there is more to come. If all they had was the agro thing, eh i wouldnt mind, but when you add that with exact levels and my least favorite, the agro icon (i really dont like that one, Thats a real easy button) it all starts to add up to making the game feel too easy, when its already quite simple as is.

I get what you're saying. I personally thought when the Aggro indicator came out that it was going to be too easy, but luckily (at least I think) they have a toggle for that as well as the level indicator, so this way people can play as they please. Having an aggro/level indicator to be toggled is at least left up to the player because the community doesn't need to force it upon anyone. As for the threat indicator, as said before, within the community it will become a requirement. I also hope the game doesn't become easy-mode, nobody wants that, but I also trust the devs to make compelling battle game-play outside of the UI additions.

[Spellstar]

Sorry but your first part makes no sense. The meter wont tell you when its ok to nuke, you still have to decide that, you wont "hold back" more or less with or without that meter...it will only tell you the results right after. After so many nukes, sure, you can see "maybe i shouldnt do that next one since the meter says red". SO its actually backwards, the meter will hold you back. For me that just seems unessicary, .

And your quite wrong about the second bit, the games like FFXI are the only ones (aside from WoW, which is sort of the middle ground) that actually last and hold a heafty amount of players for YEARS. Can you name an MMO since WoW that has lasted with a pretty big amount of subs and has not gone F2P or shut down? Cause i cant.

FFXI isnt since WoW its before so not sure what you're saying there? If youre saying that hard MMO's last and make big money then you are wrong. FFXI Has a SMALL population. Its been around 500,000 mark for years. there have been lots of mmo's since WoW though that have lasted and not gone free to play. Aion is one which hold just over 3 million subs (including Korea) and it is not a difficult game at all.

Lord of the rings online is another example of a great fantasy game that is not difficult for the sake of being difficult. (You say that hasn't gone free 2 play, and lord of the rings online isnt really free to play, the first 20 levels are free (much like WoW's first 20 levels are now free) before you need to start buying content.) Lineage 2 is another example, and while its grindy I wouldn't call it difficult.

So IMO my point stands that people want games with more modern features that aren't unnecessarily difficult for the sake of it.

Thankfully the director of FFXIV is on the same side of the fence as me, so im going to enjoy playing FFXIV as it evolves.

You, however, are just going to get more and more bitter about it i feel.

[Sephr]

I am too tired of this discussion to take you seriously anymore, so here is something for you to wrap your head around.

First it's enemy levels, then NPC floaty icons, then an enmity meter, then jumping and then one day you walk into the Milvaneth Sacrarium in Ul'dah to a bunch of people cybering.

This pretty much sums up the stupidity of this thread. Not even going to look at it anymore, the enmity information is a good idea, it was in FFXI too, deal with it.

[Zanfire]

FFXI isnt since WoW its before so not sure what you're saying there? If youre saying that hard MMO's last and make big money then you are wrong. FFXI Has a SMALL population. Its been around 500,000 mark for years. there have been lots of mmo's since WoW though that have lasted and not gone free to play. Aion is one which hold just over 3 million subs (including Korea) and it is not a difficult game at all.

Lord of the rings online is another example of a great fantasy game that is not difficult for the sake of being difficult. (You say that hasn't gone free 2 play, and lord of the rings online isnt really free to play, the first 20 levels are free (much like WoW's first 20 levels are now free) before you need to start buying content.) Lineage 2 is another example, and while its grindy I wouldn't call it difficult.

So IMO my point stands that people want games with more modern features that aren't unnecessarily difficult for the sake of it.

Thankfully the director of FFXIV is on the same side of the fence as me, so im going to enjoy playing FFXIV as it evolves.

You, however, are just going to get more and more bitter about it i feel.

First off FFXI, having 500k steady subs for this many years IS good, especially pre-wow, when having 1 mil subs was fricken amazing, especially when there is how many other games keeping that rate nowadays? 2 tops? LOTR went F2P pretty quick (fully F2P, you should look into it) http://www.lotro.com/betasignup/vipchart.html (if you need some proof)

As for Aion...well most of their subs come from Korea http://mmodata.wordpress.com/2011/02/ So im not even going to bother arguing that part.

SO other then Aion (which is basically a big korean game) can you name another that holds 500k steady for even a few years?

None of the big recent games seem to be doing it, Warhammer, STO, DCU..not doing so hot...and a bunch of the rest went F2P. Rift may be the only thing, i havent seen much from it, except people saying its pretty much WoW 1.5.

[Haibel]

Really what is wrong with you people.. you should have learned by now that
SE is has put everything UI related on a toggle. (due to every "hardcore" player bitching)

If you don't like the level display. Turn it off.

If you don't like the aggro Icon. Turn it off.

If you don't like On screen Dmg numbers. Turn it off.

If you don't like the game Turn it off. you have options. Use them.


As for my feeling on the enmity Icon. I would be nice if the Aggro/non-aggro icon
Changes into the enmity icon. I do also think it would be nice if it changed shape.
something for the color blind. You know, Circle, square, Diamond. something like that.