Battle Reform: Enmity (07/06/2011)

[Malakhim]

Ah, got it.

Anyway, here's a video of the Lich King fight just to give people an idea of how little threat management means in terms of difficulty when compared to actual difficult battle elements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1x9MErf5NA

Man... That's one hell of a zerg rush. How can you even appreciate the battle if the main baddie is essentially a DPS pincushion and you can't appreciate cool spell effects? >.>

[TirionCrey]

I could be considered a "hardcore" player and I support this Icon. Why you may ask?

Cause I'm a tank and nobody not playing a tank can't see the dumb stuff that is going with enmity right now.

First: The first skill used to engage the mob, no matter what it is and how much enmity it would produce, generates ZERO enmity right now.

Second: A player using things like Profundity/Protect/Shell/Shock Spikes/Raging Strike/Ferocity/Blood Rite or just ANY buff thats available generates around three times as much enmity as any of my so called "tanking skills" do.

Third: Tanking as a GLA completely relies on Wardrum and Phalanx. No other skills a GLA got generates comparable enmity to these 2 and that's just dumb.

I myself support this icon, as it actually starts to give me reliable information about what really does anything for me to keep hate beyond the standard stuff.

@Capita: Here is an example of how difficult battle elements AND hard thread management makes for an even hardder fight compared to the LOL King...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUZiBiwWgTk&

[Capita]

Man... That's one hell of a zerg rush. How can you even appreciate the battle if the main baddie is essentially a DPS pincushion and you can't appreciate cool spell effects? >.>

I know it looks like a zerg rush, and all the UI addons (which are absolutely necessary for this fight, btw). But it's actually super difficult and not just a DPS race.

That black spot on the ground spawns on top of a random player. It grows the longer people are in it. It can fill up the entire platform and kill everyone.

Those Valkyries pick up 3 random people. They MUST be killed or they throw those people off the platform.

Those big zombie things enrage and can 2-shot tanks. They must be dispelled.

Those spirit things floating around are kamikazes. They MUST be kited or they blow up and kill everyone. There are like 20 of them per summon.

Random people get sucked into his sword and have to solo a spirit that's trying to kill an NPC. Must kill him before he kills the NPC or Lich King enrages and kills everyone outside the sword. In heroic mode, EVERYONE gets sucked in.

Those white orbs must be killed or they blow up and push everyone off the platform and into their deaths.

There are white traps that you can barely see that spawn and must be stepped out of or else they launch you and everyone else off the platform and into their deaths.

There are various debuffs put on random players that have to be dispelled away from the group or it does like 50,000 damage and kills everyone.

Now imagine ALL of this happening at pretty much the same time, while you try to do enough DPS to kill him before his enrage timer goes off. Pretty sure threat management is the least of your worries.

@Tirion: OMG Prenerf Muru... *shudders*

Prenerf Kael was ridiculous as well.

[northernsky]

I dont really post on these forums much but I felt I had to reply to this topic.

I really like this idea, its something ive always wanted to see in an mmo im playing and yet never have. One thing I really hate in mmos is guessing things and hidden stats and vagueness. To me if I have to guess about something or some stat is hidden from any view it may as well not exist to me and takes away a huge part of my "fun factor".

Haveing an indication of your threat level is awesome, this single thing alone would now give me motivation to level up a tanking class. Also playing archer will become a whole lot more fun for me, I will be able visualy see just how hard I can ride a mob before pulling it off the tank and be able to select skills based on that instead of guessing.

Also I am someone who really hates enmity reduce skills as I feel they do nothing.. I just guess that there working and hope for the best..... boring. I want to know some skill is working and adding this visual element of color changing agro icons will be be quite satisfiing to me. Seeing the mobs agro indicator going from orange to green after using one of my archer deagro skills, this gives me motivation to use that skill and satisfaction it is actualy doing something.

I like that there removing the vaguness and guessing factors I really hate in mmos that to me is not fun.

Overall I look forward to this, usualy enmity related stuff is zZzzzZzz when I read about it, just some hidden equations changed. But there making enmity interesting and fun. Good work.

This is a very good point, I always saw it from the opposite point of view, i-e how much hate you gain from your actions, but it also informs you the other way around

[Holland]

off topic: I have never played WoW, not even looked a complete video of gameplay before today. But, to be on top of all that stuff, it seems to be pretty hard >.< and for what I was able to see on the video, very fast paced ; ;, hope the button mashing is not too extreme, it looked like it was on the video, but I have no idea.

[kukurumei]

I know it looks like a zerg rush, and all the UI addons (which are absolutely necessary for this fight, btw). But it's actually super difficult and not just a DPS race.

That black spot on the ground spawns on top of a random player. It grows the longer people are in it. It can fill up the entire platform and kill everyone.

Those Valkyries pick up 3 random people. They MUST be killed or they throw those people off the platform.

Those big zombie things enrage and can 2-shot tanks. They must be dispelled.

Those spirit things floating around are kamikazes. They MUST be kited or they blow up and kill everyone. There are like 20 of them per summon.

Random people get sucked into his sword and have to solo a spirit that's trying to kill an NPC. Must kill him before he kills the NPC or Lich King enrages and kills everyone outside the sword. In heroic mode, EVERYONE gets sucked in.

Those white orbs must be killed or they blow up and push everyone off the platform and into their deaths.

There are white traps that you can barely see that spawn and must be stepped out of or else they launch you and everyone else off the platform and into their deaths.

There are various debuffs put on random players that have to be dispelled away from the group or it does like 50,000 damage and kills everyone.

Now imagine ALL of this happening at pretty much the same time, while you try to do enough DPS to kill him before his enrage timer goes off. Pretty sure threat management is the least of your worries.

@Tirion: OMG Prenerf Muru... *shudders*

Prenerf Kael was ridiculous as well.

And complicated clusterfck like that is exactly why developers write themselves into a corner by introducing easy management stuff like enmity meter.

It's lack elegance, if you give people information, then suddenly you're backed into a corner in how to make a good fight, and then you come up with "Let's have extreme multi tasking!" or "pit falls, ya!"

Basically you're relying heavily on gimmicks gimmicks and more gimmicks. And gimmicks is scary thing.

That's also half the reason why WoW has to spend so much and fudge the balance so many times. Gimmicks gimmicks and more gimmicks can go so far, and easily broken, and needs to be rethought.

I don't endorse it this simply because we've seen the long term effects of it.

It's like crossword puzzles where people have a computer next to them...it gets so much harder to make a crossword puzzle that doesn't suck....day after day after day.

[Alkoun]

I could be considered a "hardcore" player and I support this Icon. Why you may ask?

Cause I'm a tank and nobody not playing a tank can't see the dumb stuff that is going with enmity right now.

First: The first skill used to engage the mob, no matter what it is and how much enmity it would produce, generates ZERO enmity right now.

Second: A player using things like Profundity/Protect/Shell/Shock Spikes/Raging Strike/Ferocity/Blood Rite or just ANY buff thats available generates around three times as much enmity as any of my so called "tanking skills" do.

Third: Tanking as a GLA completely relies on Wardrum and Phalanx. No other skills a GLA got generates comparable enmity to these 2 and that's just dumb.

I myself support this icon, as it actually starts to give me reliable information about what really does anything for me to keep hate beyond the standard stuff.

@Capita: Here is an example of how difficult battle elements AND hard thread management makes for an even hardder fight compared to the LOL King...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUZiBiwWgTk&

^This...
I play a healer. If it helps DPS's control they're aggro so I'm not pulling more hate healing them or AoE healing, I'm for it. If it helps tanks learn to effectively use their abilities to generate hate at the right times, I'm for it. If it means I can play more skillfully during difficult fights, I'm for it. Having more info about how my character is doing is always welcome and does not make encounters any more or less difficult; it makes me a better player, which gives devs more leeway towards creating even more difficult content.

[slipmac]

And complicated clusterfck like that is exactly why developers write themselves into a corner by introducing easy management stuff like enmity meter.

It's lack elegance, if you give people information, then suddenly you're backed into a corner in how to make a good fight, and then you come up with "Let's have extreme multi tasking!" or "pit falls, ya!"

Basically you're relying heavily on gimmicks gimmicks and more gimmicks. And gimmicks is scary thing.

That's also half the reason why WoW has to spend so much and fudge the balance so many times. Gimmicks gimmicks and more gimmicks can go so far, and easily broken, and needs to be rethought.

I don't endorse it this simply because we've seen the long term effects of it.

It's like crossword puzzles where people have a computer next to them...it gets so much harder to make a crossword puzzle that doesn't suck....day after day after day.

listen up trolls this is how you make a counter point. im for the threat icon. this is the first post ive seen that actualy explains why there aginst it insted of trolling.

[Airget]

Ya, I think an overall problem with this "give you all the info" abilities is they could have gone about it in a better way. Like with the icon that tells you the monster level, they could've made a trait called "perception" that you could earn with Guild Marks, having to buy each rank until you have the Perception 5 which would tell you a mobs level from 1-50..

For Enmity control they could've had an ability called "Hostility" which would allow you to see each members enmity towards a specific mob. Upon targeting the mob in question depending on your perception level you would be able to get a read on the mobs Hostility towards your party.

Basically if your perception is low you would get a simple red/yellow/green read. If you had average perception you would get red/bright yellow/yellow/ dim yellow/ green and if you had high perception you would have bright red/red/bright yellow/yello/dim yellow/green dim green. So basically
Grade 1=100%-50%-25%
Grade 2=100%-75%-60%-45%-25%
Grade 3=100%-90%-80%-70%-50%-35%-20%-10%

So basically low perception you would get red from 51-100%, with average red would be from 76-100% and with high perception red would be from 81-90% and bright red would be 91-100%. At least then you can strategize when you would need such abilities, to me adding this enmity checker as a mandatory ability just seems to oversimplify the concept of watching your hate. While I may agree with how "stamina" worked it may have been necessary but since they are opting to change to an auto-battle concept I would think something like this wouldn't be needed anymore since the battle flow should have more control.

I just wish when they were conceptualizing these ideas they would think of how they could integrate it into the ability system and make them more like traits you could earn rather then giving us a free skill.

[Malakhim]

Well Blizzard probably makes it that hard because the WoW playerbase is batshit insane into it and if they didn't, they'd be done with expansions in a matter of days.

I think it's cool that they can add that many levels of difficulty to a battle though. I guess that my problem with the visuals(and yes it sounds just as stupid in my head as it looks written down) is the camera perspective. Admittedly I never did too much end-game in FFXI(the slog to get past 55 was too painful for me at the time) so I can't imagine what people would have their settings as, but... the Lich King looks so small... >.> We're talking about Arthas, the asshole who usurped not only his kingdom's throne, but the throne of the freaking UNDEAD. Maybe there was an epic cutscene before that, I dunno...

Anyway, that has jack to do with the actual topic!

I could be considered a "hardcore" player and I support this Icon. Why you may ask?

Cause I'm a tank and nobody not playing a tank can't see the dumb stuff that is going with enmity right now.

First: The first skill used to engage the mob, no matter what it is and how much enmity it would produce, generates ZERO enmity right now.

Second: A player using things like Profundity/Protect/Shell/Shock Spikes/Raging Strike/Ferocity/Blood Rite or just ANY buff thats available generates around three times as much enmity as any of my so called "tanking skills" do.

Third: Tanking as a GLA completely relies on Wardrum and Phalanx. No other skills a GLA got generates comparable enmity to these 2 and that's just dumb.

I myself support this icon, as it actually starts to give me reliable information about what really does anything for me to keep hate beyond the standard stuff.]

I agree wholeheartedly. Back when I was on Fabul, my LS leader, myself and a few others were trying to figure out the best ways to tank, and not only did it leave us incredibly frustrated, but it also left my LS leader dead on the ground more times than should have been normal...

It only got worse once we realized that certain animations(like cure) took priority over hate abilities like provoke and taunt.