Turn 2 Enrage question

[Sessurea]

lol all this "some people can't handle passing rot". They just never learned it that way. + SE have already spoken on this, stating it as legitimate strategy and not "abuse". Kudos to who figured it out, it is indeed DF/pug friendly.

It's pretty clear SE left a silly hole in this boss, and instead of changing it so enrage method isn't possible ( thus admitting their mistake? ) they choose to just let it go, and you should too. SE probably won't ever fix it because it is old and used content.

And come on, people still have to clear t5 to enter 2nd coil...dw about rot lol.

[RaphaelDDL]

SE said before, some battles are scripted, it's just a matter of knowing which is next, like titan fight. It's always the same.
So the same applies to ads, lot easier for df noobs to make it through.

[Orophin]

lol all this "some people can't handle passing rot". They just never learned it that way.

Some people literally don't have the attention span to keep up with a debuff, which is why many people still haven't beaten Twintania because they can't buckle down and focus for 10 minutes straight.

[ispano]

I wouldn't classify it as abuse. It's pretty clear you are meant to survive the initial start of enrage (though likely not the entire thing). Just look at all the other successful enrage mechanics in the game and it seems more deliberate. Also, T4 has a similar "soft" enrage, perhaps it was something they were experimenting with for First Coil?

Passing rot is faster sure, but in DF it is in your best interest to go with the easiest strategy as you don't know what level of communication or skill you're going to get and Echo will not save anyone from a botched rot pass.

Actually they did say they weren't expecting it, not neccesarily intended though. Though with SE they won't change it even if it wasn't intended, unless it's a clear exploit. So on that, I WOULD call it abuse. You abuse the fact you can heal through a single mechanic, to bypass most if not all of the other mechanics. Abuse fits correctly.

[Kuwagami]

snip

Actually they did say they weren't expecting it, not necessarily intended though. Though with SE they won't change it even if it wasn't intended, unless it's a clear exploit. So on that, I WOULD call it abuse. You abuse the fact you can heal through a single mechanic, to bypass most if not all of the other mechanics. Abuse fits correctly.

Well, SE said the same thing about T5 and the "run-the-hill" method for dives. As we can bypass the mechanic by actually getting behind Twintania (which wasn't expected), you actually do not deal with the mechanic (ever tried to do it the regular way ? far more punishing). Yet SE applauded the realization of this instead of removing the hill.

In a general way, SE tries to congratulate thinking out of the box instead of fixing minor things they did not foresee, unless it really breaks the game (like the tree method for AK. At least in T2 enrage, the ADS has ONE attack which can kill you if healers derp)

[subteraneanbird]

It is not abuse to take advantage of something using solely what the game gives you naturally. ie, it is not abuse to heal through an enrage (T2), use mechanics in a unique way (having your MT dive into conflags in T5 wasn't intended, but they're fine with that too), or find an alternate method of handling moves (using LOS on T6's Devour instead of hiding in briars, or quadruple stacking Renauds in T7 to make Cursed Voice/Shriek trivial). Full stop. People who claim these are abusive methods are coming from a place of absurdity, and seemingly have nothing to back their arguments beyond some claim to purism that S-E itself actively rejects.

Only abusive actions should be called as such. Height bugging is abusive. Breaking boss AI is abusive. Not doing Rot Passing isn't abusive. Please do not muddy this discussion.

Anyways, as others have mentioned T2 enrage is a method that is relatively foolproof, at the cost of some time (how much is usually gravely exaggerated by people who prefer Rot Passing; the actual different isn't that big). It is one that requires little coordination, making it good for groups who don't know each other beforehand. If you'd like to Rot Pass, join an FC and see if you can convince them to do it with you or something. Nothing is stopping you from finding other people who agree with your sentiment.

[ispano]

Well, SE said the same thing about T5 and the "run-the-hill" method for dives. As we can bypass the mechanic by actually getting behind Twintania (which wasn't expected), you actually do not deal with the mechanic (ever tried to do it the regular way ? far more punishing). Yet SE applauded the realization of this instead of removing the hill.

In a general way, SE tries to congratulate thinking out of the box instead of fixing minor things they did not foresee, unless it really breaks the game (like the tree method for AK. At least in T2 enrage, the ADS has ONE attack which can kill you if healers derp)

Apples and oranges. Dodging divebombs this way, while simpler, is still JUST dodging the divebombs. It doesn't stop twister from happening. It doesn't stop the snakes from spawning. It doesn't stop dreadknights from spawning. It doesn't stop Liquid Hell. It doesn't stop hatch. So while, sure, you can say they're the same thing, they're not.

It is not abuse to take advantage of something using solely what the game gives you naturally. ie, it is not abuse to heal through an enrage (T2), use mechanics in a unique way (having your MT dive into conflags in T5 wasn't intended, but they're fine with that too), or find an alternate method of handling moves (using LOS on T6's Devour instead of hiding in briars, or quadruple stacking Renauds in T7 to make Cursed Voice/Shriek trivial). Full stop. People who claim these are abusive methods are coming from a place of absurdity, and seemingly have nothing to back their arguments beyond some claim to purism that S-E itself actively rejects.

Only abusive actions should be called as such. Height bugging is abusive. Breaking boss AI is abusive. Not doing Rot Passing isn't abusive. Please do not muddy this discussion.

Anyways, as others have mentioned T2 enrage is a method that is relatively foolproof, at the cost of some time (how much is usually gravely exaggerated by people who prefer Rot Passing; the actual different isn't that big). It is one that requires little coordination, making it good for groups who don't know each other beforehand. If you'd like to Rot Pass, join an FC and see if you can convince them to do it with you or something. Nothing is stopping you from finding other people who agree with your sentiment.

You abuse enrage to bypass the other mechanics. Plain and simple. It's not an exploit, nor have I ever said it was one. But you're abusing the fact that most or all of ADS' other mechanics stop when enrage hits, to effectively bypass them. Yes, it is abuse. I don't care if other people do it, I won't even bash people for doing it. But it's abuse, for sure.

And that's what it boils down to. The people who use this method don't want it called abuse, when that's actually what it is. Abuse doesn't make it an exploit. Abuse doesn't make it something SE will patch and prevent. It means you're abusing it, period.

[givemeraptors]

Apples and oranges. Dodging divebombs this way, while simpler, is still JUST dodging the divebombs. It doesn't stop twister from happening. It doesn't stop the snakes from spawning. It doesn't stop dreadknights from spawning. It doesn't stop Liquid Hell. It doesn't stop hatch. So while, sure, you can say they're the same thing, they're not.

For the love of the twelve!! You are so caught up with how people use Enrage to bypass Rot but do you realize that even outside of enrage you can avoid rot by...KILLING THE FREAKING ROT NODE!!

You don't HAVE to pass Rot even if you do it the "legitimate" way. So please, let this stupid debate die already.

EDIT: Btw, you still can't bypass the resistance buffs ADS gets from the other nodes so...yeah, you're not 100% avoiding mechanics. If you give MDEF buff with an all magic group good luck with that.

[ispano]

For the love of the twelve!! You are so caught up with how people use Enrage to bypass Rot but do you realize that even outside of enrage you can avoid rot by...KILLING THE FREAKING ROT NODE!!

You don't HAVE to pass Rot even if you do it the "legitimate" way. So please, let this stupid debate die already.

EDIT: Btw, you still can't bypass the resistance buffs ADS gets from the other nodes so...yeah, you're not 100% avoiding mechanics. If you give MDEF buff with an all magic group good luck with that.

Please point out where I said rot even once in this thread, outside of this post. I haven't. I know you can bypass rot by killing a different node, but guess what? It doesn't disable all his other active mechanics, and actually makes it more annoying since you have to silence more often among other things. I also never said 100%, but it is 100% of the non passive debuffs, ie the things you would have to dodge or deal with in other ways. Like Repelling cannons, Firestream, chain lightning, piercing laser, void zones, ballast, high voltage and debuff stacking. And that's not all they could be either.

If I was to do something like enrage is done on T2, I don't mind you, I would call it what it is, not compare it to something that it's incomparable to in terms of avoiding mechanics. Nor would I say it's not abusing enrage to bypass most of his mechanics, because that's exactly what it is.

I wouldn't classify it as abuse. It's pretty clear you are meant to survive the initial start of enrage (though likely not the entire thing). Just look at all the other successful enrage mechanics in the game and it seems more deliberate. Also, T4 has a similar "soft" enrage, perhaps it was something they were experimenting with for First Coil?

Passing rot is faster sure, but in DF it is in your best interest to go with the easiest strategy as you don't know what level of communication or skill you're going to get and Echo will not save anyone from a botched rot pass.

And that's the thing, soft enrages like this are not designed to be healed through to avoid the rest of the fight. SE's mistake wasn't putting the soft enrage in, that's pretty much fine. The problem was disabling all of the other mechanics once it happened. Once the T4 enrage happens, the mobs don't change what they do, they keep on going with whatever abilities they normally use. T2 enrage is the kind of thing that would be fixed in other games. Soft enrages are meant to be a "hurry up, finish soon or wipe" but not so strict as a hard enrage so it gives groups that are slightly slow a time window to finish. But instead people WAIT for enrage, so as to avoid the other mechanics. Abuse, 100%.

[givemeraptors]

Please point out where I said rot even once in this thread, outside of this post. I haven't.

Ah my bad, I got you mixed up with someone else.

If I was to do something like enrage is done on T2, I don't mind you, I would call it what it is, not compare it to something that it's incomparable to in terms of avoiding mechanics. Nor would I say it's not abusing enrage to bypass most of his mechanics, because that's exactly what it is...

...people WAIT for enrage, so as to avoid the other mechanics. Abuse, 100%.

That's not abuse. It merely means people figured out a way to solve the puzzle that the designers didn't anticipate. But no one is abusing, or exploiting anything. That's like saying that overgearing content is "abuse". A well-geared party can skip entire phases of a fight or flat out ignore certain mechanics. Is that abuse? Is a Titan Extreme party comprised of 1 healer/1 tank/6 DPS abuse? SE clearly had some amount of leeway in mind in terms of using alternate strategies to beat content. Unexpected =/= exploit or abuse.