with this mindset the future looks dim

[Seiryuukishi]

These people talk about wasting time like they own it. You don't own time so get over yourselves. For as much as you bicker about it being wasted you could be doing something more constructive like, I don't know, enjoying the game. Damn shame people just absolutely MUST be negative because others won't do what they want them to.

[BMihawk]

Why are people complaining about knowing the fight upfront. Its basic requirement to any kill group to at least know what to expect from a fight. At least if you dont want spoilers, read the text description of it. Most bosses in this game or mechanics do not need you to memorise 1 million boss moves but maybe just 5 the most at a single phase.

I can understand why people put such descriptions on party finder. It goes like this. Player A looks for a "KILL" group and then put up a PF. To fill up a group it takes more than 10 minutes to come up with team. Sometimes it goes for at least an hour. Usually 1-2 of the players, are impatient bastards who leave the group after 2 or even sometimes 1 wipe. The MOMENT that person leaves the group, the group disbands and player A has to wait another hour or so to form another group.

Im not sure why when someone leaves the group, it creates a domino effect that causes other players to leave the group. Im sure some have mentioned this. Learn through party finder or find people who have the same mindset as you who wants to learn while wiping with no insight of the fight. I can guarantee you almost 98% of the community are not going to join the fight. Even those who have not cleared the content.

[Astralos]

I wonder how fail can those person be in real life, 'Hey boss, i didn't read the guide you told me to for this job, why do i need a guide, i can fail my way through it and be very social with all my co-workers'

That's a poor analogy, though, as FFXIV isn't a job.

Well...unless you're RMT or something similar.

[Viridiana]

These people talk about wasting time like they own it. You don't own time so get over yourselves.

Wait, so, nothing can ever waste my time because I don't actually own any time? That's. . .that's actually your argument?

[Seiryuukishi]

Wait, so, nothing can ever waste my time because I don't actually own any time? That's. . .that's actually your argument?

No my argument is yours is invalid. By the very nature of gaming you are, in fact, wasting time. Try though you may to argue differently the fact remains. If your time was so precious to you why would you even bother to game to begin with? It is, by and large, a way to get away from having to act like you live in reality. The very core of which you waste hours doing nothing that pertains to your actual survival. What? Think ARR is going to make you better at your job, marriage, social life, etc., by you not wasting a few extra minutes on the chance that things may go south in a game of all things? For God's sake people wake up. Have we as a people become so consumed by schedules that we've no time for our fellow man? The only valid reasons you have to be in such a hurry is to get to work, do for your family, go to the doctor (i.e. emergency or appointment), or other functions like weddings, etc. Look I get people have things to do and I can appreciate that. I am a family man. I have a house to take care of and a full time job to boot. But I don't get in a hurry because there is no reason to do so. Time is not something you can hold in your hands and play with as you like though you may own a watch. It flows onward regardless of what you do so enjoy your downtime. Don't turn it into another chore.

[Viridiana]

By the very nature of gaming you are, in fact, wasting time. Try though you may to argue differently the fact remains. If your time was so precious to you why would you even bother to game to begin with?

You realize that wasting time is not entirely a yes/no thing, right? I mean, yes, I'll freely admit that playing games is firmly on the "yes" side of the scale, but at the same time, I'm (mostly) having fun and (to some degree) socializing. You've already said that socializing isn't wasting time, and I doubt you'll say that having fun has no redeeming benefits. I mean, to say that gaming is purely wasting time is, imo, to equate it with lying on my bed staring at the ceiling until the clock rolls around to work time. And to say that anything that doesn't contribute to your actual survival is a waste of time is to denigrate a great number of great things (to include the marriages you mentioned).

I mean, yes, in the grand scheme of things FFXIV doesn't matter. Nor does the time we put into it (unless it's your job or something). However, that doesn't mean that we can't enjoy it, and it doesn't mean that we shouldn't make it enjoyable for our fellow players.

[Seiryuukishi]

I mean, yes, I'll freely admit that playing games is firmly on the "yes" side of the scale, but at the same time, I'm (mostly) having fun and (to some degree) socializing. You've already said that socializing isn't wasting time, and I doubt you'll say that having fun has no redeeming benefits. I mean, to say that gaming is purely wasting time is, imo, to equate it with lying on my bed staring at the ceiling until the clock rolls around to work time. And to say that anything that doesn't contribute to your actual survival is a waste of time is to denigrate a great number of great things (to include the marriages you mentioned).

I mean, yes, in the grand scheme of things FFXIV doesn't matter. Nor does the time we put into it (unless it's your job or something). However, that doesn't mean that we can't enjoy it, and it doesn't mean that we shouldn't make it enjoyable for our fellow players.

MMO's are supposed to be about the experience with others you play with. Admittedly these can be bad but the overall idea is to go in with a group and do some things that everyone can have fun doing. Sure we may all screw up and wipe a few times but it is supposed to be those moments of "Did you see that!?" or "Man that was awesome! Thanks for the fun guys!". I don't know... Maybe my time in LotRO spoiled me on the social, fun, and still get the job done side of gaming. I do realize things aren't as black and white as they seem to be. However that's what these sorts of discussions have become formatted in. I understand the logic from both sides of the fence. It just seems illogical to me to try to argue opinions rather than sound reasons. You, for example, may desire to speedrun every instance if possible (not saying you do, just using you as an example) but I, as a tank main, may only feel comfortable speedrunning only certain ones. It's not that either of us are wrong. It's is that we each have our styles and comfort zones. So where does that leave us? I can't very well make you take the slow route but on the same token you cannot by virtue of mutual respect make me go faster. Thus we come to an impasse. It is the same with guide users and those that do not wish to use them. Both wish to experience the same content but each has their own way of which to do so. Once again neither is wrong but it is the others' way is wrong to that specific person not so much in the way itself or the person but that is not the choice they wish to make.

[Viridiana]

snip

I love discovering that I actually agree with the person I'm arguing with.

But, yeah, I've tried to make it clear in some of my posts that I don't really have issues with people going in blind, though I personally prefer the research route. The only group I don't understand is the group that refuses to seek out any information. . .until they're in the dungeon, then they want the full rundown.

I mean, it's not hard to understand the appeal of going in blind. Some of my clearest memories are from runs where people didn't know what was going on. And I can understand researching, because some of my smoothest runs have come from that (and, yeah, practice). It's when someone's actions say "I can't be bothered to look stuff up, but I want one of you to tell me everything I need to know" that I stop understanding. Though, I usually just rant to myself behind the screen. No need to yell at people in game. >_>

[Seiryuukishi]

I love discovering that I actually agree with the person I'm arguing with.

But, yeah, I've tried to make it clear in some of my posts that I don't really have issues with people going in blind, though I personally prefer the research route. The only group I don't understand is the group that refuses to seek out any information. . .until they're in the dungeon, then they want the full rundown.

I mean, it's not hard to understand the appeal of going in blind. Some of my clearest memories are from runs where people didn't know what was going on. And I can understand researching, because some of my smoothest runs have come from that (and, yeah, practice). It's when someone's actions say "I can't be bothered to look stuff up, but I want one of you to tell me everything I need to know" that I stop understanding. Though, I usually just rant to myself behind the screen. No need to yell at people in game. >_>

And that is just it. A perfect example of how people should be. You and I may not agree on every tiny detail but we can at least come to some understanding like humans ought to. I won't lie and say there haven't been any times I've been flustered in this game by people. However those were most likely people doing it for the sake of being annoying. I'm not perfect. I'll never be the shining example of what a Warrior should be but so far save for a few quirks it is my favorite class because it kind of reminds me of my Warden from LotRO. I'm not great at this game. I've not even completed T5 yet. Don't have any real desire to do so at present. But I do enjoy playing with people that have fun playing just as much as I do. I like to chat. I'm a slow typist but it gets done. I just wish there were more that could say "Hey, I may not do it your way but I'll respect it." like adults, no, civil human beings and a lot of this would be resolved with little fallout. It'd be so much more peaceful wouldn't you agree?

[Zeille]

If people are so my time self centered then how about we petition SE to patch out wiping and dieing altogether.

Misrepresenting an argument and dialing it to 11. Awesome.

If conflags and fireballs aren't that easy to learn firsthand, I call BS on learning them secondhand greatly reducing wipes.

There are some mechanics that firsthand, someone may not fully grasp, where looking it up could clue them in to the how and why of it. Had his party read a few sentences before going into the fight, they may have survived through that phase. Looking up strats has been helping people to greatly reduce wipes for a long time now, that's kind of the point.

These people aren't getting their time wasted, they "are" a waste of time, and air, they have no reason to breath good air, much less play an MMO.

People like this are lazy, self centered, obnoxious, and antisocial, the increasingly sad representation of a lot of "community" these days.

Throwing in some ad hominem too. Double Awesome.