SMN - Why it is not a very interesting job and not a good upgrade from ACN

[YanderePrincess]

Ya know, when you start with "it's like bitching etc" then ppl will stop taking you seriously. And aesthetic is a big deal. Same reason some prefer different kind of clothes, cars, etc. Or are you the kind of person who just smacks on a pair of crocs, and a washed out T-shirt? :P
I Agree, the whole egi visual and control is just plain bad, whole Job seems like a Warlock slapped the FF tag on it. :P plays the same more or less :P

I have no problem with it playing like Warlock. It honestly seems better than what I remember of Warlock. I'd just like it to look more FF than it currently does.

[LordPhantomhive]

In most fights, this simply means:

-Set pet to attack boss
-Use rouse/spur/contagion whenever they are up
-done

...and you don't have to care about it anymore. For other fights with adds, it's simply a matter of occasionally pressing your favorite keybind to tell it to attack new targets. Like I said, it's basically a DoT you move between targets - there is no interesting gameplay here, let alone "pet gameplay." You do have to keep it alive as well, but only on some fights you have to care about this, and sometimes it's just a matter of one move command and it's good for the entire fight.

I wish they'd lessen the cool downs of contagion and enkindle, to make it feel like I have more access to pet attacks. I remember when I hit 50 I was like 'ooh this JA sounds cool!' and I used it and just watched that cool down tick forever........... if it was able to be used like fester or something that would be fun..

[Kitru]

And it's not the same as bitching about an attack "not looking awesome enough." It's more akin to bitching about gear being recolors rather than remodels.

Except that gear being a recolor rather than a new model is the devs being too lazy to design new models. The primal egis are entirely new models. Gear sets are also things that you have options to change so that it doesn't really matter *what* the piece of gear originally looked like.
If you want to get into the gear comparison, ignoring the fact that you can change the appearance of it whenever you want, complaining about the egis would be closest to complaining that the devs didn't make XXX piece of gear look good enough. This is exactly why I said that it's like complaining about the animation for an attack: you can't change it (unlike armor), the effect exists but you simply don't like it (unlike armor), and it doesn't actually impact anything beyond the aesthetic. The summons are, essentially, animation/effects that are persistent. Complaining about your egis not looking good enough is only marginally more valid than complaining about a different spell or ability.

If anything the carbies themselves are closer to a recolor than the egis are because they're basically the same model as the marmots. The egis are at least unique models.

The Garuda-Egi model, however, doesn't have that issue because Garuda already flies, and of the three Egis, she's the one who resembles her Primal counterpart the least.

Have you actually zoomed in on the Garuda-egi model? She has the same posture/leg style and simplified feathers coming off of her. The only really "missing" parts of the Garuda-egi are the arms and the second set of wings. Of course, there isn't really much to go off of for Garuda other than the wings and posture, since most of what makes Garuda look impressive are minute details and coloration.The Titan-egi looks less like its primal than Garuda-egi does. The Ifrit-egi actually does a really good job of it (the only major difference is the lack of bottom legs, which makes sense given that the egi floats whereas Ifrit is landbound).

If you're perturbed that Garuda-egi doesn't look enough like Garuda, I seriously have to wonder what exactly you want it to look like unless you're demanding a small copy of Garuda herself.

And, there might be more detail in the model itself for the Egis than for the Carbies, there's not in the animations, especially on Garuda. She just kinda sits there and things fly out from her, and that's not a matter of graphics settings. And what that boils down to is the most commonly used Egi looks the least like her Primal counterpart and has the least animation to her attacks.

The Ifrit animations are actually pretty good, as are the Titan animations. They're at least as good as the Carbies. Your real complaint is that Garuda just kind of sits there and chucks particle effects, which I can understand (though I have to wonder how much you could really expect out of it; she doesn't have massive appendages like Titan or Ifrit and she's all about ranged attacks), but I have to wonder how much you would complain if Garuda-egi *wasn't* the only really viable summon to use. Ifrit and Titan have good animations and pretty good models; your complaint only really applies to Garuda (because she's the only really useful egi) and that can be defended by saying "well, what else would you do?" If Ifrit were actually a viable competitor as a DPS egi, I doubt you'd be complaining *nearly* as much about the egis looking like crap/not enough like their primals.

And to again address your statement of "that's just changing the model which is not really a big deal." It really isn't a big deal. That's part of the point. Yeah, "fixing" it would take some resources away from other visual changes/additions, but it wouldn't impact any of the teams working on mechanics-related issues, and it's a change that wouldn't require any rebalancing of the class, but would significantly improve Summoner in regards to "feeling like an FF Summoner."

So you admit it draws resources away from the development of new stuff and only serves to address the aesthetic concerns of a vocal minority of summoners (of which I have yet to meet *any* of in game) by replacing existing assets. Development is a zero sum construct. They've only go so many resources to spread around and, honestly, I'd prefer they had their animators and modelers working on new bosses and enemies than building new egis (which I'm pretty sure a majority of people would agree with).

[YanderePrincess]

@Kitru Couldn't always change what gear looked like, beyond dying it, which couldn't be done to all gear. The glamour system was added because people complained/asked for it.

I have zoomed in on the models, and you sound like you're blind if you think Garuda-Egi looks more like Garuda than Titan-Egi looks like Titan.

Congrats on a failed assumption. I actually would be complaining just as much about Garuda-Egi even if Ifrit were equally viable, and Ifrit/Titan-Egis are still not on par with the Carbuncles for animations. Having better animations than Garuda-Egi doesn't mean they're as good as they should be.

And, there's plenty else that could be done for Garuda-Egi besides sit there passively, occasionally bobbing up and down.

You're the first summoner I've met who wasn't apparently disappointed with the appearance of the Egis. And, if you were actually capable of reading (which your entire post suggests you're not), you'd notice that I said rather clearly it wouldn't take any significant resources away as it would have no impact on the teams developing anything mechanics related, and could go alongside the addition of new Egis who would also have more appropriate appearance. It would take far fewer resources than putting a game-mechanics team together for rebalancing the class to make it "feel more FF" when the lack of "FF feel" is primarily in the appearance of what you summon, something that's been a common and constant complaint since smn was first unlocked in this game.


Now, how about you just stop responding unless you actually have something constructive to say?

[Exstal]

Complaints aren't constructive.

[Kitru]

@Kitru Couldn't always change what gear looked like, beyond dying it, which couldn't be done to all gear. The glamour system was added because people complained/asked for it.

I'm pretty sure it was one of those systems that the devs fully intended to implement but hadn't gotten around to because they had other stuff to prioritize (glamour/vanity systems are basically par for the course on MMOs nowadays).

And, there's plenty else that could be done for Garuda-Egi besides sit there passively, occasionally bobbing up and down.

And I'm challenging you to actually *say* what could be done instead of simply saying that it could be done.

You're the first summoner I've met who wasn't apparently disappointed with the appearance of the Egis.

I'm the first one that's been vocal enough about disagreeing with the argument that they look crappy enough that the devs need to devote resources to fixing their appearance. I know plenty of SMNs that think the egis look just fine. Just because people don't pop up and say "the egis look fine" doesn't mean that they think they look bad (or, at least, bad enough to justify redoing them).

And, if you were actually capable of reading (which your entire post suggests you're not), you'd notice that I said rather clearly it wouldn't take any significant resources away as it would have no impact on the teams developing anything mechanics related, and could go alongside the addition of new Egis who would also have more appropriate appearance.

You've magically decided that it wouldn't take away any resources that could be placed elsewhere based upon what, exactly? Do you believe that the work will magically be done while they're working on other stuff simply because you think they're similar? It doesn't matter how you do it, you're still increasing the workload, which means expending development resources on it. Each egi basically represents the same amount of animation/modeling requirements as a dungeon boss: it requires the model as well as 5 discrete animations. Furthermore I never said anything about it influencing the design teams (content/mechanics people); I specifically mentioned it drawing animators and modelers away from other projects because I know very well that it has absolutely nothing to do with the design teams.

Secondly, the devs already have models for the Ramuh and Levi egis. They've actually had them for a good long while. Someone data-mined them back in 2.1. There's a lot of work that the devs have already done that has yet to be implemented, and you're basically asking for them to redo that work because a vocal minority doesn't think that the work they've already done is good enough. The argument that they could change the models/animations for negligible development resources is a joke.

There's a pretty good reason that they're not changing models and animations all the time: it takes work to do so (and, in fact, animations and models are a fair deal more labor intensive than putting the numbers together).

Now, how about you just stop responding unless you actually have something constructive to say?

So anyone that disagrees with you is not constructive? I've laid out explicit reasons why the devs have better things to do with their time. Not being constructive would be just telling you to shut your yap and get over it. I'm actually disagreeing constructively because I'm adding to the discussion (which is where the "constructive" comes into play), even if you don't like what I'm adding.

[YanderePrincess]

Disagreeing with me is not "not constructive." Your failed attempts at presenting "arguments" is not constructive. If you actually had a legitimate point to make or anything more than attempts at twisting what someone says into something else entirely, then you'd be constructive.

Aside from Garuda, which looks like crap, having severely poor quality and a distinct lack of animation, the Egis look "fine." However, looking "fine" (or not) is not the primary issue I've been voicing. The issue is that they don't have an FF feel to their visual design. What they look like is "generic MMO pet class' pet," and even there, WoW's Warlock's pets had more personality to them than the Egis do. What we get in FFXIV feels more like the Sorcerer pets in DCUO, as far as visuals go, and those still have more detail to them.

As far as resources, the primary model and animations are all already there. You can see them anytime you go into a Primal fight. That's if they were to go the route of really giving them a more solid "FF" feel and making the Egis actually look like their primal counterparts, just on a smaller scale (though likely a larger scale than the current Egi size).

If they were to just make Garuda-Egi's model and animations better, and more on par with Ifrit-Egi and Titan-Egi, then that would require more work most likely as it would require redesigning the model and adding animations that don't already exist.

Also, "good enough" doesn't mean "can't be improved" or even "shouldn't be improved." The game mounts we had at release were good enough, but that didn't stop them from adding more. The class/job options before they added Arcanist/smn/sch was "good enough" but they still added Arcanist/smn/sch, and they're still adding more classes and even a new race. The macro icons were good enough, but they still redesigned them. If "good enough" were reason to never change anything, the game would stagnate and die.

[Exstal]

That's if they were to go the route of really giving them a more solid "FF" feel and making the Egis actually look like their primal counterparts, just on a smaller scale (though likely a larger scale than the current Egi size).

And this is the part where you sound like Akiza.

However, this argument is off topic anyway. I agree that there should be a restructuring of SMN's main job skills to be more pet orientated rather than character orientated.

[givemeraptors]

You're the first summoner I've met who wasn't apparently disappointed with the appearance of the Egis.

I'm the first one that's been vocal enough about disagreeing with the argument that they look crappy enough that the devs need to devote resources to fixing their appearance. I know plenty of SMNs that think the egis look just fine.

Yeah...I've never had a problem with the way the egis look. I actually like the look of Titan a lot. Garuda is my least favorite, but I think that's because she isn't as "active" as the others who go around and smash things. But that'd be like complaining about casters not running around bashing things with their books and sticks.

[Akiza]

The issue with the Summoner is the Arcanist has more control over their ability to shape Aether since they can shape it into replicas of Carbuncle and Topaz. Summoner's are an equipped job that enhances the abilities of the Acanist which means they should have greater control over their ability to shape Aether and be able to shape corrupted Aether into weaker and smaller replicas of the Primals but instead the Arcanist power got nerfed some how and lost the ability to control Aether when the Summoner job stone got equipped.