with this mindset the future looks dim

[VallisRaine]

when i DF and i get something Ive done before i wont offer strat or any of that good stuff. look at first run like your gonna wipe (dry run) this isn't a static get used to it. If we wipe then I'll offer help and explain fights its not a big deal. If you don't like dealing with it you shouldn't que solo in DF get a static. I just hate how mean people can be

it's just stupid when 2.2 went live i promise you i saw a couple PF had Levi HM up and asking for exp or pro only on day 1?? stuff like this moves the people who have less knowledge about a fight/scared to join PF running to DF. And yea its not your job to babysit of course not and chances are you'll never see them again so let's be mean to DF ppl why not right?

The WHOLE SYSTEM IS FLAWED and it's not either sides fault. Try being a decent person and type a few extra words to guide people. Because guess what! If you teach one person its possible they'll go on to teach several others and that way in the end we all win.

[Solieri]

OK let's go through those games and see the issues shall we? WoW....developed and introduced by Blizzard who until entering the mmo world developed mainly first person shooters...

Just FYI, Blizzard has made exactly zero first person shooters. Funny comment from someone who was harping on "new MMO players" pages back. The way I'm looking at it, you seem like the new one. Modern MMOs have different gameplay than FFXI and other older genration MMOs, which I'm guessing is about all you've probably played. End game content is harder than it used to be, and research is one of the expectations that has come with it. This is not new to this game. It exists in every recent MMO that I have played (and I actually have played a lot). Expecting to be taught everything by a random group of players in complex, multi-phase fights is pretty rude.

[Magis]

Just FYI, Blizzard has made exactly zero first person shooters. Funny comment from someone who was harping on "new MMO players" pages back. The way I'm looking at it, you seem like the new one. Modern MMOs have different gameplay than FFXI and other older genration MMOs, which I'm guessing is about all you've probably played. End game content is harder than it used to be, and research is one of the expectations that has come with it. This is not new to this game. It exists in every recent MMO that I have played (and I actually have played a lot). Expecting to be taught everything by a random group of players in complex, multi-phase fights is pretty rude.

Well there was Starcraft: Ghost, but RIP that game.

[AiChyan]

Don't trivialize my desperation! Or boredom!

I've said what I needed to say in this thread :P

lol you two. Well I live in an entirely different zone than yours (i think), so I might not be very useful for your fc

[Kuwagami]

Studying the fight

Just quoting you for that (inb4 out of context : studying beforehand to get a guess at what's coming)

Doesn't it sound extremely wrong ? Studying for a game ? It's not a job, nor school. You have no exam at the end.

Imho, that's the point in the toxic behaviors we can see (like, KILL EXP OR GTFO, 1 ERROR = KICK or others in PF after 3 days in a new patch on brand new content ? ). People became so impatient, they lost so much the fun out of playing that they only want to get their shinies (aka tomes, or gear, or whatever), and do not value anymore the time spent chatting with people, teaching newbs, socializing.

in following examples, (...) means nothing is said at all

typical DF is :
=> <Hello!>
=> (...)
=> <Good job!> <Take care!>

End of the story. Insert random flaming if a wipe occurs with new player who didn't say they were new, rage quitting on trials, and so on.

Typical (non learning) PF is :
=> Hello, call your loot
=> (agreement made on loot and eventually strategy used)
=> (...)
=> kthxbye can't go on
=> party disbands

Typical (learning) PF is :
=> Hello, have you watched a video ?
(=> if party leader is a jerk, get booted out if you haven't. Usually get told to watch one, "please")
=> if a veteran is here, he might explain the important guidelines
=> wipe twice
=> kthxbye, can't go on
=> party disbands



And now I ask you : When can we have a social community ? Tbh, I'm bored of playing solo in a MMO. Meeting strangers that don't matter because I don't care of them, I do my dungeon and just never meet them again, even in PF... I think the most social experience I've had (apart from my tiny FC) was a PvP linkshell, because we were so bored of waiting 20+ mins to get a fight that we were chatting randomly and just being happy of playing together. That was my fist social experience with strangers in FFxiv. Not that I wasn't trying though. But you know, being the only one speaking in a dungeon for an hour or more is kinda boring after 6 month

[AiChyan]

Just quoting you for that (inb4 out of context : studying beforehand to get a guess at what's coming)
Doesn't it sound extremely wrong ? Studying for a game ? It's not a job, nor school. You have no exam at the end.

Um no. Studying is watching a ten minutes video once but with focus. Thats it. FYI I never joined even once any kind of three strikes you are out exp plz parties ever. My learning runs which I "study" before are extremely pleasant, and even if we don't win we all leave after we have learned tons and potentially friended each other. I remember spending a huge chunk of my first T5 learning run, which again I "studied" for, talking with everyone about our countries and cultures and fawning over Germany.
Going in a fight knowing the baseline of it doesn't mean not having fun or socializing. To me that knowledge meant smoother learning runs, and a chance to actually say stuff and joke around instead of spending the run making someone tell me what I should have known before coming in.

[Suniva]

Doing research before going into something blind, aka "studying" for it, is something that we do everyday. If you're having car problems and are unsure of what may be wrong you...look it up. You are asked a question that you may not know the answer to, you look it up. Everyday, if there is something that we are unsure of, we tend to look up the answers for ourselves if there is no one immediately around to answer those questions. You can have an FC mate explain the fight to you, or you can watch a video, or you can go into a DF run and ask for an explanation, either way, you are looking for the information for the fight, and are processing that information in your mind. So technically, you are studying for it. Because if you went in, and paid NO ATTENTION to the explanations that are given to you, because you do not feel like "studying" the wall of text in front of you, you will probably be removed from group. I do not understand your logic.

[Kuwagami]

I do not understand your logic.

Maybe because your logic makes a parallel between real life and game experience.
To take your examples :
=> if you have car problems, you might have troubles going to college/job which could have consequences
=> if you are asked a question (I assume this is in school, because if I don't know an answer for a random guy in the street I probably won't do the research unless I'm interested), well your job as a student was to learn it or you're discovering it so I guess it's normal to look it up. Might be useful for the exams.

now in game :
=> you go blind. If noone bothers to explain anything (not that I ask anyway, I just say that I'm new when I don't experiment in FC), then you'll just wipe a few more times than it's probably needed. Then the consequences are the following :

- You met a group of people willing to spend time playing, and who think that teaching a newb can be somehow useful for the future (usual "teach them to fish"). You'll spend an hour/1h30 at max (more if PF) learning the fight and acquiring reflexes/knowledge valuable in future content/games (like thinking by yourself. Maybe the most useful). These people do not care if you have watched a video or not. They will help you learn.
or
- You met impatient people who will leave after a single wipe (or 2 to wait for the abandon vote). They would not have stayed even if you had all the knowledge required and just made errors in the process of mastering it. These people are playing solo. They do not value their gaming time. They value their real life time.

Which makes me wonder why they play a MMO in the first place. Because you are going to meet less skilled players or players that do not fit your ideas of how to make fun in MMOs. These people have the same right as you to play. It's not because nowadays the trend is to maximize profit that the 1 in 10 player who wants to enjoy his own learning curve can't play.

If you really want to avoid them that much, just go PF for everything. Just stop asking people to do their 1st time experience in PF because "ain't nobody got time for teaching noobs. GTFO of my game experience". It's about as much harassing as the "if you want to watch the CS in CM/prae, go make a PF for it" Lolwut ?


TL;DR : if you think other people are wasting your time because they have no idea of what is coming, stop playing with them. Go only in static group or stop MMOs at all. You are obviously not fitting for a helpful and healthy community.

[Suniva]

if you think other people are wasting your time because they have no idea of what is coming, stop playing with them. Go only in static group or stop MMOs at all. You are obviously not fitting for a helpful and healthy community.

You are making an incorrect assumption. Just because I have an opinion does not mean that I will force it on someone in a way that will be harmful to anothers experience If you had read my previous post, you would have seen that I have no problem helping a person, but I am one that can't help but wonder why they are so against spending 3-5 minutes watching a video when they are going to be spending 3-5 minutes having a fight explained to them.

If you really want to avoid them that much, just go PF for everything.

It works both ways. As easily as you pointed out that others with one mentality can use the PF for everything, so can others with a different mindset. This is not a just argument.

[Suniva]

Maybe because your logic makes a parallel between real life and game experience.

You're also missing the point I was attempting to make. The logic that I am using is that, in all situations, if a person is unsure of something, whether it is in real life, or in game, they are going to ask questions. It is human nature. Granted, there are people in the community who are elitist (and that is like that in every MMO) who are going to rage quit, call you names, leave after one attempt, etc, and then you are going to have others that do not mind helping you. This is in every MMO, and is nothing new. There is always a "toxic" group of players that you may occasionally run into, but that is the risk of using DF, and not forming up your own in PF.