Tanks/Threat/lowlevels Please fix this.

[Spoekes]

I think a much simpler fix would be to either crank up the enmity generated by Flash or give Circle of Scorn to PLD earlier than 50. PLD's biggest weakness sub-40 for many people is a lack of true AoE threat like WAR's Overpower. Changing Shield Oath to 30 is only a band-aid fix. If a PLD is going to have trouble holding enmity, it'll be AoE and not ST. Shield Oath will only make it harder to lose AoE enmity, but a PLD that isn't paying attention will still lose it.

Yeah, lol, much simpler... not.
Flash and Scorn in general do not need a buff and this is not what this thread is about.
If you have problems keeping enmity in end game, go look at the other how-to-tank threads and learn, because the problem is most likely you.

[Coth_X]

Yeah I do, because they affect my game when I do low level roulette.
You are acting as if this change would actually be a buff where it isn't.
Those bad tanks will eventually get Shieldoath anyways, so, of course you can have the attitude to just say "s*ck it up and deal with the bad tanks" (no fun) whereas everyone would benefit from this QoL change, don't they?

It's not much of a QoL change, if you get stuck in anything pre Haukke manor is my point, which makes it that much more unnecessary.

And nothing should be changed just to make it easier for the worst players.

[Spoekes]

It's not much of a QoL change, if you get stuck in anything pre Haukke manor is my point, which makes it that much more unnecessary.

And nothing should be changed just to make it easier for the worst players.

guess we are talking cross purposes.
I am for switching Shield Oath with Sword Oath, which will just make the life of PLDs post 30 easier, no more, no less.
Never did i say that you need it to do the job if you are good (more of the contrairy in fact), but you get it with 40 anyways, so why bully the "bad tanks" from 30 to 40?

Bad/inexperienced tanks will have more fun and hopefully keep playing AND improving, whereas the rest of the party will have a nicer run too.

My only concern was PLD having Halone and Shield Oath with 30, which would be kinda OP.

[Souljacker]

Flash and Scorn in general do not need a buff and this is not what this thread is about.
If you have problems keeping enmity in end game, go look at the other how-to-tank threads and learn, because the problem is most likely you.

This thread isn't about end-game, it's about low levels.

I have stepped into tanking now to further expand my understanding of the issues and I stand behind my initial thoughts of Maurauder vs Gladiator. Marauder has just been given more tools natively and more access to tools from other classes. Overpower cements monsters and is an AoE frontal cone. Gladiator gets nothing like it. They also get access to Flash as a supplemental tool, but I have barely had cause to use it. Overpower is a devastating threat attack and a couple of those on the pull and I don't even have to mark. Then it's just tab through each with the chain.

There DOES need to be something additional for low level gladiators or something about the rate of Flash's enmity decay needs to change. It's not fair that Marauder gets access to the gladiator tools AND superior native tools and I can't see how anyone argues that this is balanced.

[MythToken]

It's not needed, you need to flash more.

[Souljacker]

It's not needed, you need to flash more.

No. It's not enough to pull threat back if someone has gone ape shit on mob #3 completely ignoring marks (it happens. people are tools).

Every single article or post I have read on the subject says basically the same thing: Gladiator should get a better AoE tool on par with what Marauder gets. I've seen firsthand from a DPS and Healer PoV that Gladiators struggle disproportionately. I've now started playing both classes myself. It's been super fun, but there's some issues with gladiator gameplay or flash's enmity duration. It doesn't cement mobs as well as overpower does.

SE trying to make a "AoE" tank and "ST" tank (which is the most common "explanation" I have found for why things are this way) is one of the worst decisions they could have made and that's saying something considering the history of this game. Blood tank versus blink tank versus some other method of gameplay tank (parry etc)? Ok. AoE versus ST? No.

[Dinivas]

Yeah, lol, much simpler... not.
Flash and Scorn in general do not need a buff and this is not what this thread is about.
If you have problems keeping enmity in end game, go look at the other how-to-tank threads and learn, because the problem is most likely you.

We're not talking about end game, we're talking about low level. I didn't say Scorn needed a buff, I said it could be unlocked before endgame. The thread is about holding threat against mobs in low level dungeons. Many of us know how to tank and how to keep enmity, but that doesn't mean you can't acknowledge that there's a disproportionate level of skill required between Gladiator and Marauder in low level dungeons. People are still leveling their first class in addition to level synced max level characters running roulettes for tomes.

A Marauder can Overpower 1-2x and use Flash if they want and never lose AoE enmity. Gladiators have to spam Flash and tab target their Halone combo to make sure people aren't unloading on the wrong mobs to pull hate. It's not compelling gameplay and is a great way to discourage some people from wanting to level a Gladiator. Scorn every 25 seconds on top of tab targeting Halone with the occasional Flash is more fun and makes more sense than a rotation of Flash > Flash > Flash > Flash > Flash > Halone > Flash > Riot Blade at low levels. Tanks are already at a premium on some servers. Making one or two mechanically simple QoL changes to GLA/PLD could help.

Should a tank have to work to keep mobs on him? Yes. Nobody's asking for a WoW-like enmity system where a tank hits a mob or a pack one time and can never lose their attention. We're simply asking for the skill floor to be raised a little bit. A bad DPS only hurts themselves and makes a run take slightly longer, but a bad tank that doesn't know their class or the enmity mechanic hurts the entire group. Raising the skill floor ever so slightly makes it easier on everybody in that group. A bad tank will still be a bad tank, but the entire group shouldn't suffer because one person just wanted a quick roulette queue.

[Kitru]

Gladiator should get a better AoE tool on par with what Marauder gets.

The only difference between GLD and MRD from an AoE enmity standpoint is that GLD has to throw out more Flashes than MRD has to throw out Overpowers. This makes sense because Overpower is cripplingly expensive whereas Flash is pretty much free (because it costs MP). If you expect to match GLD with MRD GCD for GCD, it's not going to work. If you're having problems with low level enmity on the GLD, it's because you're not using enough Flash (the same can largely be said about MRD and Overpower as well): they're the only really effective enmity tools you've got until your late 20s (you get more ePot GCD out of spamming your AoE than you do out of your t2 ST combo).

The major difference/contention between WAR/MRD and PLD/GLD is not their AoE enmity generation. It's their AoE *damage*. WAR has amazing AoE damage (it's actually the best of all melee classes); PLD basically has none (Circle of Scorn is a whopping 25 pot/GCD over time). They're both entirely capable of generating enough AoE enmity, but PLD is basically worthless in any scenario that demands AoE *damage* because it might as well not have any.

It's been super fun, but there's some issues with gladiator gameplay or flash's enmity duration. It doesn't cement mobs as well as overpower does.

Enmity lasts until either you or the target dies. It doesn't have a duration. Enmity is governed by the potency of the attack.

Flash generates the same enmity as an attack with a potency of 495. Overpower has a potency of 120 with a 5x enmity mod, which means that it generates the enmity of an attack with a potency of 600. Overpower generates is just over 20% of what Flash does. But, as I said before, Overpower generates more per GCD because you can't use it as often due to an incredibly high cost. Flash can basically be spammed until you're out of mp with no real deleterious effects. If you spam Overpower too much, you're going to be sitting there doing nothing for extended periods, waiting for your TP to regenerate.

SE trying to make a "AoE" tank and "ST" tank (which is the most common "explanation" I have found for why things are this way) is one of the worst decisions they could have made and that's saying something considering the history of this game.

WAR and PLD are in no way split between a AoE tank and an ST tank. Whoever told you that is just being an idiot. The difference in tank "category" is that the PLD is the simple/passive tank whereas WAR is the complex/active tank (complex being a comparative term; WAR is complex when compared to PLD). PLD requires negligible forward thinking and has 1 option for whatever situation it needs that accomplishes said goals perfectly well. WAR requires forward thinking (Wrath generation, consumption, debuff application, Pacification) and has multiple tools for any given situation that you have to weigh the cost/benefits of each for (SC v. Overpower; SE v. SP v. BB; Berserk or not to Berserk).

The difference between WAR and PLD isn't in anything like AoE or ST focus (in fact, properly played, a WAR can outshine PLD on ST tanking just as well as it outshines PLD on AoE tanking). It's in playstyle.

Blood tank versus blink tank versus some other method of gameplay tank (parry etc)?

Those aren't gameplay methods. Those are mechanics. It wouldn't matter if WAR was built with no self heals, barely any deviation from DR, and no extra hp; WAR would still play completely differently than PLD because WAR is a complex/active tank whereas PLD is a simple/passive tank.

[MythToken]

Well said

/10 char

[Fue]

Problem is flash isnt really fun move to just spam nor is it as efficient as overpower is for both dmg and enmity on aoe packs.
Also TP isn't that big of an issue.

But yeah flash still gets the job done.