Tanks/Threat/lowlevels Please fix this.

[Coth_X]

So, an experienced tank has leveled up warrior to 50 - the tank that everyone agrees is balanced - and gladiator to a modest level is arguing that nothing is wrong.




You don't need 20 skills. You need 1-2 tools that actually work and are easy to use\understand how to use. This whole ramp-up thing of enmity attached to self-skillchains is really detrimental to the tank role as a whole, and the Flash\Skillchain back mp might have looked good on paper but in practice every single guide I have read has discouraged it because you can't afford not to use the enmity skillchain. It needs to be looked it. This topic comes up often enough in enough different places that there is a problem.



I'm not a tank at the moment. I leveled to 50 drg exclusively through dungeons and main scenario, and I am leveling WHM exclusively through dungeons. This is coming from the perspective of someone who DOESN'T see things from only the tank side. As a healer and a dps in instances, I have had the opportunity to observe a lot of tanks. Experienced gladiators who are fast at marking tend to do better than the ones that don't, but I have yet to even SEE a warrior bother with marking and they very rarely if ever lose control of the pull. That's a big disconnect.



No. The attitude that "but, but, it's ONLY 4 DUNGEONS" is what pushes people away. That indicates that you know there is an issue but don't care and think it shouldn't be bothered with because it's low level content. Personally I find that to be a terrible attitude.

I leveled pld to 50 first and then I leveled war to 50 and I enjoy war more which is why I play war more.

It isn't just those 4 dungeons! WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTANDING? Let's just give gld shield oath at lvl 1, done, they will never have to try to hold hate ever again. If they can make it through haukke manor without shield oath, they can make it through another 4 dungeons with improved dps output.

Also, bad tanks are bad tanks, and good tanks are good tanks. I think I was leveling my pld pre 2.0, maybe it was already 2.1, and I had mostly no issues. It got tougher at 30-40 but if it wasn't a challenge, then what would be the point? And I never thought at the time I should have gotten shield oath at 30 because I never needed it. Some tanks out there are really fucking lazy, and some tanks out there are open to advice which is nice when you can help someone out.

[ValkyrieL]

shield oath adds 20% dmg mitigation, so to avoid "breaking" game balance and making it earlier dungeons a faceroll, the 20% mitigation has to change.
What SE can do is remove the 20% dmg mitigation from shield oath and allow to obtain it at earlier levels, the 20% mitigation in shield oath needs to be move to "Passive" and will be obtain at the level you get shield oath now.

[Spoekes]

WAR gets the full benefit of Defiance (HP and Heal buff and Crit) with 30 too so whats the big deal with Shield Oath being game breaking?
Also, there are no traits for job abilities, only for class abilties.

The fact that I did not need Shield Oath at 30 either has nothing to do with the observation that other tanks are struggling to keep the aggro.
PLDs that didn't learn to use flash when they were still GLDs, will not use flash with Shield Oath either, meaning you still have to learn basic things.

The only technical reason PLD does not get Shield Oath with 30 that i see is that he gets full Halone combo earlier than WAR.

[Fue]

Well thats one of my biggest complaint on all of the classes that use chain skills.
They shouldve just given the basic full combo for every class before first dungeon.
I had way more fun at lower levels with pugilist cause you atleast get your first basic stuff at lvl6

[Kitru]

The only technical reason PLD does not get Shield Oath with 30 that i see is that he gets full Halone combo earlier than WAR.

The only technical reason that WAR gets Defiance at 30 is because every other WAR skill requires you be in Defiance for it to be used. There are absolutely no contingent skills for PLD.

People keep behaving as if there's no reason that PLD can't be like WAR when it's more appropriate to say that there is a well defined reason as to why WAR can't be like PLD. As plenty of people have already said, enmity isn't really an issue from 30-39 (even if you disagree about this specific level range, it's no different than it was before) so it stands to reason that the devs designed the game under the assumption that tanks would only get significantly out-enmitied by DPS/healers starting at 40 (which susses out with the 40+ dungeons which is when unavoidable AoE starts coming into play). As such, unless a tank has a good reason for it, they wouldn't get a tank stance until 40. WAR has a *really* good reason; PLD doesn't.

[MythToken]

This is a dumb argument, No one cares about sub 30 dungeons.

[Madotsuki]

For PLD, pre-Rage of Halone dungeons (all before "Thousand Ews of Total-Yuck") are more or less the only place it can be annoying to hold hate when your DPS have job souls on and perform well. It requires focus on frequent flash usage and mp restoration (especially with AoE DPS), but it is manageable.

[Coth_X]

The fact that I did not need Shield Oath at 30 either has nothing to do with the observation that other tanks are struggling to keep the aggro.
PLDs that didn't learn to use flash when they were still GLDs, will not use flash with Shield Oath either, meaning you still have to learn basic things.

Are you really trying to justify it with bad tanks? Bad tanks are bad, and giving them shield oath sooner won't make them less bad.

Good tanks, aren't going to have problems.

This is a dumb argument, No one cares about sub 30 dungeons.

The reason sub 30 dungeons still matter is because I often get dumped in copperbell/sastasha/toto on the regular in duty roulette. The reason this argument involves pre30 dungeons, is because this change wouldn't help a i100,098 pld using duty roulette getting into one of those dungeons anyways.

[Dinivas]

I think a much simpler fix would be to either crank up the enmity generated by Flash or give Circle of Scorn to PLD earlier than 50. PLD's biggest weakness sub-40 for many people is a lack of true AoE threat like WAR's Overpower. Changing Shield Oath to 30 is only a band-aid fix. If a PLD is going to have trouble holding enmity, it'll be AoE and not ST. Shield Oath will only make it harder to lose AoE enmity, but a PLD that isn't paying attention will still lose it.

[Spoekes]

The only technical reason that WAR gets Defiance at 30 is because every other WAR skill requires you be in Defiance for it to be used. There are absolutely no contingent skills for PLD.

I was saying why I think PLD does not get shield oath at 30 (because of Halone).
You are saying why WAR gets Defiance.
You are right, but both points do not disprove each other.

Are you really trying to justify it with bad tanks? Bad tanks are bad, and giving them shield oath sooner won't make them less bad.
Good tanks, aren't going to have problems.

Yeah I do, because they affect my game when I do low level roulette.
You are acting as if this change would actually be a buff where it isn't.
Those bad tanks will eventually get Shieldoath anyways, so, of course you can have the attitude to just say "s*ck it up and deal with the bad tanks" (no fun) whereas everyone would benefit from this QoL change, don't they?