Duty Finder and troublesome players

[i2agnarok]

Everyone are equally self-important, so saying someone is less important because he is the minority is rude and wrong. Sometimes sacrifices has to be made (but not forced), but otherwise everyone should either find a consensus or disband. Forcing interests of the majority on everyone is wrong in it's core: everyone's interests must be accounted equally if they wish to stay united.

At the end of the day, you are playing the wrong game.

Four people only looking out for themselves isn't a team or a group, it is four people trying to get themselves through something without giving or taking. People with line of thinking is the reason why the game is as miserable as people are saying. All of the problems you are facing are things that can be alleviated by getting over yourself. You only sense of unity in your type of party is that you have 4 people that want to make it to the finish line. You are about as united as four people sitting on a bus.

I don't like people. I hate MMOs and having to depend on other people to do their job. However, just like real life, you can only do so much on your own. The purpose of an MMO in the first place is to force cooperation. I don't like it, but I play the game knowing that. Why should I willfully make things harder on myself? Give and take. As much as I may not like who I'm dealing with, I want to get to the content. A pointer or whatever is going to get me to my goal quicker. If someone takes it offensive and becomes more problematic, that person is going to be kicked. That person is going to leave. It may take you a moment to get a replacement, but if someone is going to quit over being given advice, which absolutely happens, they're going to keep running into a road block and either shape up or move on. Either way directly benefits me. My motivation may not be "pure hearted," but it gets me to my goal, it makes for less bad players, and it helps everyone. More importantly, I don't believe everyone's interests are being accounted equally if you're purposely allowing them to hurt themselves because you don't want to speak up. My gaming experienced is being DIRECTLY AFFECTED by someone not doing their intended role correctly. My interests are NOT being accounted for equally. If I am a DPS and that tank is causing problems for me, not because I'm actively or obliviously causing problems for him is one thing, but if he's doing his job completely incorrectly, he's not just causing problems for me, but the other people in the group as well.

I work a technical support job; if people could read the instructions, we wouldn't need these jobs in the first place. Depending on the nature of the job, technical support jobs mean that 90% of the time, the customer probably could have fixed something themselves if they spend a modicum of time trying to actually find the answer.

And here's a great idea; people can be rude because they think your words are making them look weak. "If I can get this far, why should I have to change it now?" Because people like YOU are letting them run into issues and do things incorrectly. People that I throw a helpful hint to don't "expect," to get help, but they appreciate it.

Most importantly, how are spamming Flash and uncombo'd Halone NOT detrimental? I am a Dragoon. I deal extremely high numbers. If you are not comboing correctly, that means I deal aggro. I can't be concerned with micromanaging to account for someone else doing their job incorrectly. If I want them to do something right, I tell them, in so many words. If they can't accept it, they can be ejected. In endgame content, it means I am probably going to die in short order. Not managing your aggro abilities as a tank is also going to mean that the healer is going to draw aggro. In endgame scenarios, you ARE GOING TO DIE. These scenarios ACTUALLY HAPPEN. Before endgame, you can simply brute force your way through it, not say anything and simply deal with it, but it does not work after that. All of these things happen can be prevented, but are allowed to happen because of people like you during the fundamental stages of learning the game.

You have absolutely no right to complain when you allow this stuff to happen in the first place. Your views of weakness and being self-sufficient do not work in these types of games. I share the same views in most cases, but if I want to play this game, I have to accept what comes with it. You should probably stick to single-player games.

[lxSch]

I don't like people. I hate MMOs and having to depend on other people to do their job. However, just like real life, you can only do so much on your own. The purpose of an MMO in the first place is to force cooperation. I don't like it, but I play the game knowing that. Why should I willfully make things harder on myself? Give and take. As much as I may not like who I'm dealing with, I want to get to the content. A pointer or whatever is going to get me to my goal quicker. If someone takes it offensive and becomes more problematic, that person is going to be kicked. That person is going to leave. [..] My motivation may not be "pure hearted," but it gets me to my goal, it makes for less bad players, and it helps everyone. More importantly, I don't believe everyone's interests are being accounted equally if you're purposely allowing them to hurt themselves because you don't want to speak up. My gaming experienced is being DIRECTLY AFFECTED by someone not doing their intended role correctly. My interests are NOT being accounted for equally. If I am a DPS and that tank is causing problems for me, not because I'm actively or obliviously causing problems for him is one thing, but if he's doing his job completely incorrectly, he's not just causing problems for me, but the other people in the group as well.

I like people and i play MMOs to meet different people. I like cooperation and being accounted equally. I do content not for the reward, but for the social experience. I am fine with not getting a reward as long as i had a good social experience.
I see that our cultures differ greatly, but i still think there are many people who share my point of view. On my part i see that calling cartoons and web the cause was unjustified due to my lack of knowledge of the western culture. On everyone's part - i would like you to consider different cultures playing the game, and not forcing your own rules upon them.

[i2agnarok]

I like people and i play MMOs to meet different people. I like cooperation and being accounted equally. I do content not for the reward, but for the social experience. I am fine with not getting a reward as long as i had a good social experience.
I see that our cultures differ greatly, but i still think there are many people who share my point of view. On my part i see that calling cartoons and web the cause was unjustified due to my lack of knowledge of the western culture. On everyone's part - i would like you to consider different cultures playing the game, and not forcing your own rules upon them.

...OK,what?
Moving on from the bit about the cartoons, I am now genuinely confused by you.
You just told me that you are purposely not bringing up erroneous play and keeping quiet.
But you want a good social experience.
You like "cooperation."
Cooperation can be defined of active assistance.
The point of a dungeon is teamwork.
Letting someone do something wrong isn't teamwork.
Teamwork is not a culturally unique concept, I don't understand how we keep trying to paint it as such.
In the Olympics, representatives from all sorts of cultures gather together as a team to get through content.
I guarantee you that they do not get as far as they do by ignoring each other and letting them do things incorrectly.
Just because this game is easy enough that you can flail your way through content doesn't mean that its how it was supposed to be done.
I drop into a team in progress on Crystal Tower, there are people speaking English, there are people speaking French, there are people speaking Japanese.
Someone says something where the only thing that I can understand is "Summoner."
Google translate says "Our Summoner has low DPS. Could you please help with clearing out the adds instead of fighting the boss like normal?"
Someone suggests to said Summoner that they should use "Bane" more when there are targets on the screen.
This is teamwork, the fact that we are in different cultures does not excuse the lack of will to be working together to help everyone get through the content smoothly.
Expecting people to work together toward a mutual goal is in no way unique to my culture and I do not understand why you keep trying to spin it as such.

Your problem is with people being Rude.
What is considered rude is determined entirely by the person on the receiving end.

If I say "let me make this easier for you,":

1) One person may be appreciative and moved.
2) One person may think that I am being condescending because they don't get it.
3) One person will think I am poking fun at their weakness and seeming inability to do the task on their own.

Regardless of the tone or intent, the person on the receiving end is going to interpret this however they will. In case 2 or 3, they may give me a response that I consider to be rude. I may find someone of your culture to be rude. You may think the point that I am constantly going back and forth with you about your opinion is rude. It is entirely dependent on interpretation. In the eye of the beholder, as someone said earlier. These reactions also exist in all cultures, while several may occur more often than others based on personal experience. Your mileage may vary.

[lxSch]

Today i did 2h worth of brayflox hm 2 boss runs (9-10 min per run) with a pld who used sword oath and uncomboed RoH to keep enmity (during pulls also CoS), but no flash and no other combos. Since we were doing multiple runs i suggested (just once) he could try using the fast blade -> savage blade -> roh combo to increase enmity potency (using the x-language tabs) and i am sure he understood me, but preferred own way, and everyone in the team were fine with it. That pld gear was full CT set and i70 crafted accessories, which is still not endgame tier.
It was one of my best experiences over last days, because pld was friendly and positive, which is much more important for me than doing a dungeon 1-2 mins faster but with toxic players. Such runs are the main reason i play ffxiv - not for allagan or ex primal drops or faster ToM, but for a good social experience.

[i2agnarok]

snip

Its a tad ambiguous whether the pld ignored your comment or he said he'd rather do it this way and no one cared to press it because no one died.
If no one's dying or are inconvenienced, I guess it doesn't really matter.
If they run into a situation where that doesn't get them anywhere, you see how they adapt.
It sounds like no one actually died in this run.

I had to do Stone Vigil for my Atma book.
WAR is using Maim combo instead of Enmity.
I run around and do my rotation on all the mobs so -10% defense for the BRD if they choose to AOE, plus DoTs spread out.
Come back to original mob and I'm still like one attack away from taking aggro.
I suggest doing Enmity combo instead of Maim repeatedly, as I am close to taking aggro.
I get no response, and we finish that pull eventually.
Next pull, I stop holding back and take aggro; he immediately goes back to Enmity combo and only does Maim combo after he has a lead.
I don't have any snotty comeback and he apparently knows what he's supposed to do, so I say "ty" and go about my business of joking around with the BRD and killing things.
Would have done so if I just pulled aggro and hadn't said anything? Maybe, who knows.
There was nothing wrong with trying to communicate with him, and probably shows that I'm not just another DPS not watching aggro meters like that thread in the tank forum about DPS not watching aggro meters.

Its one thing if you're doing something sub-optimally and it can be ignored, as it sounds like it was in your party, but its something else if its causing problems.
Any example I've given have either been inefficient (adds not dying at Atomos) or causing wipes entirely (skeletons not being killed on platforms).
Yours sounds like more of a mild annoyance than anything.
I'm sure you'd feel differently if it caused a wipe or deaths and translated to even longer runs.
It sounds like there weren't AOEs being thrown around where DPS was taking aggro and excessive damage/dying, nor a full-room pull (otherwise I have no idea how aggro wasn't being taken if flares were being dropped).

Its the same thing with the Arcanists/Summoners that take tanking pets into dungeon parties.
It contributes nothing to the run in most cases and will annoy the hell out of the melees more than anything else, but they insist they're helping.
If the choice of pet is causing annoyance for the melee, not really contributing because you already have a tank, and is causing encounters to play out longer, I don't see anything wrong with asking for them to switch.
I STILL run into this, even if the tank is never in any danger.
If I say "hey, your pet is spinning mobs around so I miss positional attacks, please use dps pet," am I being rude, obnoxious, or "toxic"?
If the tank asks for the switch because he's already overgeared in a synced dungeon?
If the healer asks for the switch?
If the ACN/SMN continuously refuses?
Its not outright hurting anyone.
But its annoying me and causing the run to take longer, but of which have an effect on my enjoyment of the run.

All of these things vary in how much they're annoying/weighing down the party.
Its also about how the person being requested to do something reacts.
Your example doesn't appear to have caused any lasting issues.
When I said PLD not comboing RoH, I mean against bosses for prolonged periods. Things that will kill people if the tank isn't holding aggro. The scale is different than a speed run against trash mobs.
Uncomboed RoH also has situational uses.

[KiraVaela]

Now i see why drama starts in DF so much. I highly dislike to solve my problems through other people (either by asking or telling them to do something). If someone is really hindering the group (using flash only or uncomboed roh is not) - i will give them time to see there is a problem and try to improve, if they do not - i will leave. It's not the matted of not knowing a certain thing, but having a wrong approach in the first place.
Did they read skills description? - No. Did they pay attention to the group? - No. But this was the cause. Would i solve the cause by explaining what to do in a particular certain situation? No, i will only make it worse because their problem will become much harder to notice.

I strongly disagree with your approach here if this is what you do.

Firstly, being in a group where someone is clearly hindering the group is not YOUR problem, but the problem of the group in the first place. It's not only you who is experiencing troubles, it's everyone. Maybe you are the only one experienced enough to notice it. In which case you should feel obligated to at least try to fix the problem by pointing it out politely, trying to communicate, or just something... By leaving without saying a word you solve YOUR problem and create even bigger problem for other 3 people in the group at the same time. That seems a bit selfish to me. The guy really could be just very new to this game and he might be able to correct his mistakes the second he realizes there are some (by someone else pointing it out, happened countless times to me). You never know.

Similar situation happened to me recently where tank in low level roulette would just play very badly, he would not response or try to do anything to keep aggro better. I tried few times to explain, it didn't work out, so I left because I clearly saw there is next to no chance of finishing the dungeon in time. But this is at least the absolute minimum you can do before leaving and I strongly believe this is the correct approach. If you see a problem, point it out politely after some time and you still get flamed for this, it's not your fault and you can leave with clear conscience.

Try to think over it.

[Alcyon1]

LOL Now, someone complains about using "Need" for seals. Eh, guys, if everybody uses Need instead of Need, instead of hoping to get a lucky roll, we are hoping to get a lucky drop. Nothing changes, I cannot understand the point of the discussion.

About the minimal approach, I'm far from it. When I use the DF :
-I check the DPS. Stuff ? AOE ?
-I check the healer. Stuff ? Class ?
-Someone is new in this Duty ?

With those informations, I decide how big the pull are going to be and if I need to give some informations. I accept a wipe for a minor mistake (example in BF HM : someone pulls the 4th pack when I pulled the 3), but if someone is cleary bad, I'll leave asap, without a word (i90 BRD + BLM + WHM in BF HM, my first pull is the usual first pull, I die : I quit). I'm not here to tell some them how to play.

But I won't do a speedrun with a i50 healer, I'll take one pack per one pack, I don't mind. I won't take 10 mobs if I'm with a MNK and a BRD, it would be a waste of time.

PS : City of Amdapor. Group of i90 players, a DRG, a SCH and a SMN. I decide to pull 7 mobs, then 5 mobs and the healer start to whine about how I shouldn't pull so much mobs, we don't have many AOE. I tell him that the DRG can do a few AOE and the SMN can drop the DOT's mob by mob. They refuse, and tell me "if you pull more than a pack, I don't heal". I pull 2 packs, he let me die. I don't care, I come back : I pull, he let me die. Ok, I had some fun during 45 minutes : I pull then I stop doing anything. They kicked me 3 times, I came back 3 times. They left (after 30 minutes and the 2nd boss) and 3 players were happy to get 45 tomes in 5 minutes.

[Grotesque]

I'll leave asap, without a word (i90 BRD + BLM + WHM in BF HM, my first pull is the usual first pull, I die : I quit). I'm not here to tell some them how to play.

Congratz, you're the typical tank retard.

[Alcyon1]

Congratz, you're the typical tank retard.

If they cannot kill fast enough what I75+ players can kill or keep me alive when an I80+ WHM can do it, yes I accept to be a retard. Again, I'm not here to learn how to play to players who have high end stuff. I'd gladly help a new player, but not someone with a full Myth gear.

[Grotesque]

If they cannot kill fast enough what I75+ players can kill or keep me alive when an I80+ WHM can do it, yes I accept to be a retard. Again, I'm not here to learn how to play to players who have high end stuff. I'd gladly help a new player, but not someone with a full Myth gear.

You don't have to expect anything from DF. This is only your imagination. Speak with them beforehand. Maybe they just want a chill run without hassle even they could do it better. If you want to Speedrun use PF and get off your horse.