Dark Knight

[Exstal]

Why give its own base class when Mrd has all the skills it already has that's menacing? Berserk? Vengeance? Storms blow which increase slashing dmg? It's all right there overpower???

I agree with Roffel. Marauder kind of makes sense for this.

2 handed axe for Dark Knight seems kind of lame? They (SE) have so much time to create a new cool base class with a completely different skill set from Marauder. Sure, you *can* make Dark Knight from Marauder but why do it when you can make a whole new playstyle.

I believe they should only make 1 class into 2 jobs if that was the intention from the ground up like SCH/SMN. Going back to change or modify is probably more work than it's worth.

[Roffel]

Obviously you don't kno the lore of drk. There is only 2 times they had 1 handed weapons and that was tactics and 4. Everywhere else they had gs and scythes. Ur looking for diff when all they were are brutal and evil sacrificing there own life for sheer power. Trying make its own class AND job would be a hell of alot more work then adding 5 job abilities and armor. The skills are there why not just use them. The animation is amazing for Mrd. Mrd has the capibilities of being a great dps give. This would give them that.

[Kitru]

Everywhere else they had gs and scythes.

On only 1 occasion did DRK have a scythe and that was FFXI. There's better precedent for DRK to use a sword and shield than there is for them using a scythe. Also, you're forgetting FF2, wherein Leon the original dark knight, was a spear/shield specialist. Cecil was also a sword and shield user, rather than a greatsword user and he's basically the foundation of the entire DRK archetype in FF. It's only in the most recent iterations that DRK has become synonymous with greatswords.

I'm not disagreeing with you that they should use greatswords, though. It's just that, if you look at their historical appearances, there's more precedent for them to use 1h and shield than there is to use a 2h sword.

Trying make its own class AND job would be a hell of alot more work then adding 5 job abilities and armor.

And yet adding 5 abilities wouldn't really make a DRK based off of GLA that's actually compelling to play. It's one of the reasons why you're not like to see any DPS class based off of GLA (or CNJ): they're too vested in their base role that you're not going to make a compelling DPS playstyle with just 5 abilities, and, if it's not compelling to play, what's the point? A lot of classes are simply too vested in a single role to ever get another job, since it's highly unlikely they'll ever double up on jobs with a given role for a single class. THM, ARC, GLA, and CNJ are all basically locked to a single job. LNC and PGL have some potential to be turned into tanks, and MRD has some potential to be turned into a DPS (it's substantially more problematic than turning LNC/PGL into tanks), but, honestly, it's much more likely that they'll only have double jobs for classes built with it in mind because, elsewise, you're liable to get mechanics that don't work for both or too many abilities that are only useful to one job.

[Bloodclaw]

It's not the Assassin "iconic" outfit (not entirely sure it can be "iconic" given that you're talking about an outfit only used in 2 games where every other implementation looks nothing the same).

Hold it right there....



Source

Zero Argument here. This is the assassin iconic outfit there is zero disputing that fact.

[Bloodclaw]

Are you seriously using a video about video game ninjas as a link to historic ninjas? The "defensive tactics" of the historic ninja were almost entirely evasive techniques; not "dodge the sword" but "run away or hide so that they can't catch me". I really don't see a tank doing that.

If you actually WATCH the video the creator was comparing fake Video Game Ninjas to REAL ones. Better luck next time on this one.

*Trot* *Trot* *Trot*
Hear that? Sounds like goats on YOUR bridge. Better go get'em!

[Bloodclaw]

Yoshi has already said that NIN will never be a tank because the idea is ludicrous on the face of it. NIN were *stealthy* which is completely and totally contradictory to the idea of a tank. Nowhere in the entire FF series can you find an example where NIN was actually intended to be a tank, and the only example where you *can* find wherein NIN was a tank (FFXI), it wasn't because of the developers thinking it was a keen idea; it was because the devs made a stupid mistake by giving NIN too powerful of a personal survival tool, and the player base completely changed their metagame around said ability. In FFXI, the only reason the devs made NIN a straight up tank was because they had to cede to the player metagame; if the players hadn't turned them into tanks and done so to a monumental degree such that they were often the *preferred* tank, the devs would never have allowed NIN to be tanks.

This is a fair statement, jobs/class appearance has changed depending on the game so the ninja in this game could be snagging the assassin's iconic look to better fit the game. However if this is the standing opinion, we might not get a ninja class in the game by name, but rather the ninja class by name of assassin, but by name alone.

[Bloodclaw]

On only 1 occasion did DRK have a scythe and that was FFXI. There's better precedent for DRK to use a sword and shield than there is for them using a scythe. Also, you're forgetting FF2, wherein Leon the original dark knight, was a spear/shield specialist. Cecil was also a sword and shield user, rather than a greatsword user and he's basically the foundation of the entire DRK archetype in FF. It's only in the most recent iterations that DRK has become synonymous with greatswords.

Wellll, lets see how that holds up.

FF2: Favored weapons were two handed, specifically Axe and Spear. While not as proficient with it as an axe, his most powerful weapon is a spear.

FF3: Sword and shield were options not sure how useful/prevalent though. Seems equal with others.

F4: Both sword and shield as well as spears where used. Mostly spears favored with the Dark Knight. The Dark Knight art often looked like a dragoon and wielded a spear. In "The After Years" When facing his evil self, the dark knight it is wielding a spear as well.

F10-2: Actually a tank class that can wield a sword 1 handed and 2. But no mention of a shield.

F11: Two handed weapons, Sword and Scythe.

However, judging that the job will probably be from the Gladiator class to keep people from specializing in both Paladin and Dark Knight, there is a good possibility of a shield and sword dark knight. However I still think that a new precedence of a two sword wielding dark knight could be there. Likely hood is not much though.

[Kitru]

Zero Argument here. This is the assassin iconic outfit there is zero disputing that fact.

Saying there is zero disputing it when you're not actually tackling the counterargument doesn't mean that there's no disputing it. It just means that you're ignoring any counterargument because you're too married to your own idea that you can't fathom any possible contradiction.

You must not have read anything I said concerning the actual break down of the outfit because, if you did, you'd see that almost none of their garments actually the same. All you looked at was a vague similarity in the color scheme and a facewrap and immediately concluded that they were the same thing.

Compare Yugiri's hood, mask, loose shirt, and arm guards to this:



Yugiri's outfit is essentially that (the NIN outfit) with a purple color scheme and no embellishment on the hood.

Seriously. Go and break down the specific garments that are being worn between the classic NIN, the FFTA/2 Assassin, and Yugiri. Yugiri's outfit has way more in common with NIN than Assassin. The only major similarity between Yugiri and the Assassin is the ears and the mask (but the head wrap is all Assassin). Everything else is completely different.

[Bloodclaw]

Didn't Yoshida say that Ninja will never be tank in this game?
They also didn't like being seen, or their presence being known at all. Which is the opposite of what tanks want.

True, so that would lend itself to being a stealth support debuff class if they wanted to go strictly historically accurate in a playable version. However the tactics OTHER than being out of sight was a host of defensive tactics which do go in line with being a tank at some odd angle. Both of these would be closer to accurate than an DPS ninja.

[Kitru]

If you actually WATCH the video the creator was comparing fake Video Game Ninjas to REAL ones. Better luck next time on this one.

I did, and he's still not using real historical ninjas. He's using the modern concept of the ninja that was exaggerated to create the video game ninjas that he's bashing. His concept of a ninja is only marginally more accurate than the ones the video game uses (dangling upside down and crawling around on rooftops is not something that a ninja would do all the time, much less break someone's neck).

His "real" ninjas are all running around in the "trademark" ninja garb in which there is not a lick of evidence that ninja actually wore. He also acts as if ninja were absolutely and totally obsessed with keeping their identities hidden by concealing their faces (seriously, he's massively hung up on this). A vast majority of the time a ninja would be running around looking like a peasant, blending into crowds because it's a helluva lot easier to get away when you look inconspicuous than when you're dressed "like a ninja" (even at night; hiding behind something or looking like an innocent bystander is *infinitely* more effective than trying to hide in shadows), not to mention that a vast majority of ninja work was just like modern day spycraft: gathering information, sabotage, and only *rarely* killing someone (even then, more likely to be accomplished with poison or some other indirect method). Blending into the background is also why the traditional ninja weapons were old farm tools or very small, easily hidden weapons (real shuriken are tiny and the "throwing star" never really used; shuriken were more like large throwing needles or kunai): the ninja would look like a peasant working in the field, harvesting crops rather than an obvious threat.

The "ninja outfit" that he goes on and one about is a construct of popular culture, not history. It was derived from kabuki theater where the stagehands who ran around behind the actors were dressed in black so that they blended in with the black backdrop. Since someone walking up behind an actor kind of signal an impending assassination/attack which ruins the surprise, the "assassin" would be dressed as a stagehand so that everyone ignored him and "kill" the actor with no one suspecting. Since assassinations are pretty popular in historical plays and a technique like that only works until everyone expects it, people started equating an actor dressed in the stagehand's outfit as the stereotypical "ninja", much like people think that spies are like James Bond. The different colored suits were simply reverse extrapolation of the black suit as people tried to account for straight black being bad camouflage (unless you're, you know, in a kabuki theater using a black backdrop).

That video has less to do with historical ninjas (as in "actually happened way back when") than it does with the modern day concept of a ninja extrapolated in reverse by people who love ninjas more than history. It's just like the modern view of the samurai, cowboy, or almost any other popular historical archetype (interesting note: the code of Bushido was actually invented by Japanese Imperialists as propaganda as a way to mythologize their heritage rather than realize that samurai were simply a caste of people with swords that were often little more than celebrated policemen). People are less interested in the bland reality than they are in exaggeration and "rule of cool". The guy obviously *likes* ninjas and has more than a bit of a weeaboo streak in him, but that's basically blinded him to any idea that the ninja might not be as cool as he thought they were.