The number of bad players are rising!

[JTribal]

"I help, but I don't carry"

In this case it would be the teacher getting paid the same as the student.

You must have had some pretty bad luck then, because I typically get multiple commendations on runs where I offer positive advice.

[Ceons]

I don't think players are getting worse, I think it's more like expectations are getting too high. It's almost like some people expect a well oiled dungeon stomping machine everytime they use DF, in some groups you can feel the tension start building after just one wipe. I was doing the main story roulette the other day on my SCH and as the tank left he decided to inform everyone that it was the worst group he'd ever played with. That kinda surprised me as not one person was KO'd at any point, the off tank picked up all the adds, everyone knew the mechanics and the dungeon ended in a reasonable time. The run was a little bit sloppy in places but that was about it, no biggie and I just assumed everyone had run it a million times and wheren't really pushing it to the max, so to speak. I guess you just can't please some people.

This is a complicated problem that goes beyond "good players, bad players". It's essentially a systems problem. There are all kinds of people everywhere. Most people (as mentioned here before) want and expect a fast and smooth run every time. There is very little tolerance for mistakes, people are very impatient and they have very high expectations that can not be met by every player who happens to be one of the randoms in a roulette.

So, the actual problem (please don't bash I'm not for or against, just sharing thoughts) is the duty finder. To make it easier for people to play they added very attractive rewards to making yourself available to play with anyone, anywhere with any skill level. This becomes a problem when people who are running said content for the first time (or few times) is put together with someone who has done this hundreds of times and does just want to get the points and do the next thing in 30mins or less.

The other side of this would be to offer rewards for working together outside of the duty finder. That would bring people of the same skill level together where reputation, team work and potential for making friends and enemies would matter more. On the other hands, that would mean since the duty finder/roulette would not be the best most efficient way for everything then less people would use it and not everyone would get to play whenever they wanted, resulting in long queue times and many stopping to play all together because of it.

Is it quality vs. quantity? Time vs. reward?

Perhaps a category in duty roulette as we have in the party finder? "Expert" "Normal" "New experience friendly"...

It is impossible to get anyone and everyone to play together smooth and perfectly every time seeing as we are humans. What we can do is try better systems to reduce that to a minimum...

Anyway, /rant off

[givemeraptors]

This is a complicated problem that goes beyond "good players, bad players".

I admire your POV but I think it's a simple problem that boils down to rude players vs. polite players. There have been times where I have wanted a dungeon over faster and was impatient to get it done. But I would never harass my party for going slowly or wiping. I would simply try and give advice and assistance.

Unfortunately, few people want to teach, and many inexperienced players have been burned by the demands of inconsiderate people.

[Foo01]

Changing the naming from bad to rude, etc. does not change the fact that there will always be a self selected group of elitist who believe they are special. Furthermore they feel they have to right to call everyone else bad and treat them as such. That is fundamentally the problem.

They feel they have the right to subject everyone else to their expectations and demands, but it is actually they themselves that are actually bad, and bad for the community and the game. It does not matter that they put in more time or got better gear or they know the tactics better, it does NOT give them the right to belittle other players and mess up their experience by simple things like forcing people to skip cut scenes that they are seeing for the first time.

[ispano]

Changing the naming from bad to rude, etc. does not change the fact that there will always be a self selected group of elitist who believe they are special. Furthermore they feel they have to right to call everyone else bad and treat them as such. That is fundamentally the problem.

They feel they have the right to subject everyone else to their expectations and demands, but it is actually they themselves that are actually bad, and bad for the community and the game. It does not matter that they put in more time or got better gear or they know the tactics better, it does NOT give them the right to belittle other players and mess up their experience by simple things like forcing people to skip cut scenes that they are seeing for the first time.

Which means it's also not right for people on the other end of the spectrum to belittle people who put in more effort and time into the game either, because that happens just as much if not more often in my experience.

The idea is this, the so called "elitist" people that you are trying to describe, do exist. However, they come from a smaller chunk of the playerbase, whereas the mirror of that type of person comes from a much larger group.

[Foo01]

Which means it's also not right for people on the other end of the spectrum to belittle people who put in more effort and time into the game either, because that happens just as much if not more often in my experience.

The idea is this, the so called "elitist" people that you are trying to describe, do exist. However, they come from a smaller chunk of the playerbase, whereas the mirror of that type of person comes from a much larger group.

But those people one the other end of the spectrum probably don't even put enough time in to check the forums, much less make threads and calling other people bad. The idea that that there exist much larger group that belittle those select elitist is purely delusion. The distribution of the threads here clearly demonstrate that.

The elitist feel like they are that special snowflake or something. And that is how you get threads like these:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...cool-1.0-stuff!

I don't know why they feel so entitled.

[ispano]

But those people one the other end of the spectrum probably don't even put enough time in to check the forums, much less make threads and calling other people bad.

No, they don't. They just have a larger presence IN game, ie where we ALL play. And people who like to call out "elitists" always forget or ignore that.

And that is a good thing. They play and get along, and do NOT try to make problems like the elitists and speed runners abusing the duty finder. What is the problem there? That larger group is what makes the game possible and brings the community to life.

Wow, way over your head. No, the group i'm talking about DON'T do what you say. People always forget, a game like this, you need BOTH groups, even if one side is a smaller group, for the game to survive. The problem with mixed games, is BOTH sides need to work together in a group, not the "hardcore" players always only bringing themselves down every single time. And this is what I'm talking about, that large group who REFUSES to step it up even a tiny bit when in a group, because it's just a game, but the "elitists" have to drop down to them in a group? I'm sorry, that's wrong.

[Foo01]

No, they don't. They just have a larger presence IN game, ie where we ALL play. And people who like to call out "elitists" always forget or ignore that.

And that is a good thing. They play and get along, and do NOT try to make problems like the elitists and speed runners abusing the duty finder. What is the problem there? That larger group is what makes the game possible and brings the community to life.

[Zhi]

But those people one the other end of the spectrum probably don't even put enough time in to check the forums, much less make threads and calling other people bad. The idea that that there exist much larger group that belittle those select elitist is purely delusion. The distribution of the threads here clearly demonstrate that.

The elitist feel like they are that special snowflake or something. And that is how you get threads like these:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...cool-1.0-stuff!

I don't know why they feel so entitled.

Lol. /10char

[Goodberry]

You "good" players should thank us "bad" players: our existence allows you to feel so special and so cool because you are (or consider yourself) good at playing a computer game, though you may be less skilled at other human endeavours, like school, work or communicating with people.

Crystal Tower? Will never do it, because was summarily kicked after FIRST fight without anybody taking a second to tell me what I had done wrong. By the way, I HAD taken the time to read guides about CT, but if there is anyone who can perform perfectly every fight in every instance the first time they step into them, sadly I am not that type of person. And I don't take kindly to jerkish behaviour, so will never try CT again. Don't even like the place. :P