Casual player

[Asiaine]

you need BOTH groups to keep a game alive

But you don't. There are hundreds of games out there. And this game (like all other businesses) can pick a target demography and cater to them. This game could have been the: jRPG with English Port for Players Who Like Challenges. It could have even been FFXI-2 for those who like it. It could have been the FFXIV for people who hate FFXI. It could have been super hard-core-24-hour-NM-camp-1%-drop, or the 5-minute-100%-boost-to-99 game.

They choose to cater to 'everyone', and in the end may be end up making no one happy.

[ispano]

But you don't. There are hundreds of games out there. And this game (like all other businesses) can pick a target demography and cater to them. This game could have been the: jRPG with English Port for Players Who Like Challenges. It could have even been FFXI-2 for those who like it. It could have been the FFXIV for people who hate FFXI. It could have been super hard-core-24-hour-NM-camp-1%-drop, or the 5-minute-100%-boost-to-99 game.

They choose to cater to 'everyone', and in the end may be end up making no one happy.

And yet, you do. What would happen if they fully catered to the casual base? The game would be FAR different than it is now, not an easier version of what we have. Basically, not the game they wanted to create. But if you cater to the upper end of gamers, that group is small, and while that group would love it, it won't sustain a game.

[Asiaine]

And yet, you do. What would happen if they fully catered to the casual base? The game would be FAR different than it is now, not an easier version of what we have. Basically, not the game they wanted to create. But if you cater to the upper end of gamers, that group is small, and while that group would love it, it won't sustain a game.

But here I would have to sadly disagree with you. As a business they can choose their target audience:
'Casual' -- then build a game around this target group.
'Upper End' -- then build a game around this target group.

They would then have to manage their budget and costs in line with their target market (as any normal business would do). So for example, they would say:
Casual Market size: 1M people, expected revenue: 120M/year.
Upper End Market size: 200k people, expected revenue: 36M/year

Then they would say: Production Costs:
Production Costs to meet Casual Market & Upkeep: 80M/year
Production Costs to meet Upper End Market & Upkeep: 20M/year (less servers, and less frequent content may be needed to cater to them, and perhaps less flashy graphics).

And so on, until they decide what business model they want. Then they create the game for that model.

What they've done with FFXIV 2.0 is go: Ooh, I would love a game that has this, this and this! Okey... it's made! Yes.. this is how I want the game to be.. okey.. now.. um. Who is the right people to sell this to?

And therein is the 'flaw' if you will.

Now, you don't HAVE to cater to both. You CAN cater to a niche/target demography. You can also try to have mass appeal. This game definitely does not have mass appeal. Which leaves the question: What demography were they targeting?

[ispano]

-snip-

See, the problem with that last bit, is sure you don't have to cater to both, but by not doing so you have to change the game. If they have a vision of how they want the game, those changes may not fly. Also, I'd say it appeals to plenty based on what I see in game.

[CYoung187]

There is plenty of stuff for both casuals and hardcores. If someone is casual, why are they even trying to grind Atma or hardcore content? If you want to be casual, be casual, don't expect to have/do everything that the hardcores do. That is just unrealistic. I am a fairly casual player, I am not stressing about getting atma., it isn't needed and there are other options. I'll grind on occasion and get my atma later then everyone else and I am fine with that. I can see the discouragement though when a casual player looks at the PF though. "LFM Turn 1, i85 required, must be pro, wipe = kick"

[Asiaine]

And yet, you do. What would happen if they fully catered to the casual base? The game would be FAR different than it is now, not an easier version of what we have. Basically, not the game they wanted to create. But if you cater to the upper end of gamers, that group is small, and while that group would love it, it won't sustain a game.

This game does really cater to the Casuals, with Coil and Atma slapped on in an attempt to entertain 'upper end' gamers. Ignore coil and atma, and you quite literally have a point & click game you could 'faceroll' your way to completion. Granted, there might be a few fights where you have to memorize which way to roll your face.


I'm not sure having a game that caters to 'hardcore/upper end' players would be unsustainable. I would need to see real concrete impartial market research on the topic to say. (It may very well be that no one can really say accurately... ).

The concern with this game is they seem to be confused on their target audience. If it is pure casuals, they need to remove coil/ATMA/grindy stuff like that. If it is upper end players, they need to make the combat more challenging so that doing grindy stuff is not boring. If its in between, then they risk alienating those at the polar ends. (Upper end players complain the content is so easy all they have to do is boring grind, casual players complain the content is too grindy or difficult).

What I think they are ending up doing here is sort of playing a juggling game:
Patch1: Okey, let's make the casuals happy. Yes, I know all the upper end players are now ticked off, we'll worry about them next patch.
Patch2: Okey, now let's make the upper end players happy. Yes I know this will tick off the casuals, we'll worry about that next patch.
Patch3: See patch 1.

Which means we, as a player/consumer/customer, will be going through cycles of both happy/sad/happy/sad until one of those wins out.

[ispano]

-snip-

OR the way it was done prior to 2.2 wasn't intended or didn't work the way they thought it would.

[Capita]

But you don't. There are hundreds of games out there. And this game (like all other businesses) can pick a target demography and cater to them. This game could have been the: jRPG with English Port for Players Who Like Challenges. It could have even been FFXI-2 for those who like it. It could have been the FFXIV for people who hate FFXI. It could have been super hard-core-24-hour-NM-camp-1%-drop, or the 5-minute-100%-boost-to-99 game.

They choose to cater to 'everyone', and in the end may be end up making no one happy.

This is why you're not a game developer.

[Asiaine]

This is why you're not a game developer.

Not sure that recognizing there can be many times of games excludes me from that ^^; That being said, this game does not really cater to the 'hard core' crowd (battle mechanics are really really really simple). And now it seems to start to annoy a bit of the 'casual' crowd with the ATMA farming.

It's as if they are a bit confused:
We want the hard core players to work hard to get their Atma.
But we want the battle mechanics to be so simple anyone can do it without thinking.

End result: Mind numbing repetition for 'hard core' players, and annoying repetition for 'casual' players.

If, for example, battle mechanics were very difficult to master and challenging, and merely winning a fight was a daunting but rewarding task then the drop rate could be less annoying with the RNG (the challenge would be in actually winning, not winning 100 times). However, due to very simple battle mechanics there is no challenge (or gating factor) in winning the battle. Therefore it must be the repetition of winning the battle that is the gate.

And therein is a sign of the flawed design (and/or direction). And given the significant number of people who seem to be posting unhappily, it may be a valid point.

[Capita]

-snip-

You guys have very short memory. When the game came out, "hardcore" people were practically BEGGING for a grind. The smart ones were asking for actual difficult content, and argued that grinding/time played doesn't make you hardcore, but the "hardcore" called them casuals and begged for a grind anyway.

So now we get a mindless grind that takes no skill, and people are complaining?

There's no pleasing everyone. This should solidify that idea. The best course of action is to appeal to multiple demographics because even if you do something a group disapproves of, another group will approve of it. Square's doing a pretty good job at that right now.