Personally, I'd rather you scrap the Armoury System then Lock 1 Job to 1 Weapon.

[Rydin]

Wont be done with all of those till the end of august

So let's discuss this in August + any delays

[AceofRains]

I read a couple of pages of this thread and got to thinking...

The creator of this threat seems to express that people will be missing out on THF due to daggers being locked out. Interestingly enough, who said a THF HAS to use daggers?
Remember FFX-2, while not the most conventional weapon, the THF dressphere got flim-flam as a weapon, a real oddity. But hey you gotta stop limiting yourselves to the traditional ffxi weapons.

Now as for Blue Mage, which hands down is my favorite class in the series, the scimitar weapon is locked out. But hey whos to say it cant use something else, let alone if the class get implemented.

Red mage and their rapiers have not been locked out, tho a rapier is a type of sword, it is a sword type not implemented.

EDIT:

Oh yeah and dont be so mad about 1:1, you know darn well when you played WAR you used a GA, when you played DRK you used a scyth, and when you played SAM you used a GK, being able to wield only one weapon per class isnt a crime, its actually a brilliant idea. The crime is lumping many weapon types into one catagory, using unfamiliar names to call the classes, then having little to no uniqueness with in the classes. We need diversity and thats something we liked about xi.

ya know mankind has made up more weapons than the few you've encountered in ffxi

stop trying to make this game ffxi and make it something new, the armory system works, its when you want it to be something else when it doesnt.

[Cairdeas]

Does anyone actually like the 1 'class' : 1 weapon system?

Just add a menu button that lets you change your 'class' and proceed to equip any viable weapon/tool for that class.

All the freedom of being able to change classes in the field, and freedom to choose equipment.

Technically the only reason they are called classes is because thats how it was localized. In the Japanese Version they are just weapons and don't even have special names. they are just "Sword User" "Axe User" etc.

We should have never called them classes, none of this confusion or rage against the armoury system would have exsisted. I'd have also not locked any skills from cross equipping, as that also leads to people thinking there "Has" to be uniqueness between the weapons when the weapons were already unique.

I read a couple of pages of this thread and got to thinking...

The creator of this threat seems to express that people will be missing out on THF due to daggers being locked out. Interestingly enough, who said a THF HAS to use daggers?
Remember FFX-2, while not the most conventional weapon, the THF dressphere got flim-flam as a weapon, a real oddity. But hey you gotta stop limiting yourselves to the traditional ffxi weapons.

Now as for Blue Mage, which hands down is my favorite class in the series, the scimitar weapon is locked out. But hey whos to say it cant use something else, let alone if the class get implemented.

Red mage and their rapiers have not been locked out, tho a rapier is a type of sword, it is a sword type not implemented.

EDIT:

Oh yeah and dont be so mad about 1:1, you know darn well when you played WAR you used a GA, when you played DRK you used a scyth, and when you played SAM you used a GK, being able to wield only one weapon per class isnt a crime, its actually a brilliant idea. The crime is lumping many weapon types into one catagory, using unfamiliar names to call the classes, then having little to no uniqueness with in the classes. We need diversity and thats something we liked about xi.

ya know mankind has made up more weapons than the few you've encountered in ffxi

stop trying to make this game ffxi and make it something new, the armory system works, its when you want it to be something else when it doesnt.

Uh, Flim Flams were Daggers. They just had special pommels and guards.

And no, I didn't always use a GA on Warrior, a GK on Samurai, Or a Scyth on DRK.

WAR, Depending on Subjob
If Thief - Great Axe, or Great Sword depending on targets.
If Dancer - Dual wield Axes and swords, or Great Axe, Retribution + Organics was a great combo for me
If Samurai - Great Axe, Pole Arm, Great Sword, Bow
If Ranger- Accuracy Daggers + Bow, Outdamaged Rangers constantly.

Samurai, Depending on Subjob or target.
Thief - Polearms and Great Katanas
Dancer - Great Katanas, Daggers, Swords, Polearms.
Warrior - Great Katanas and Polearms
etc.

Dark Knight
Thief - Great Sword
Black Mage - Scyth
Warrior - Great Sword
Ninja/dnc - Dual Axes and or swords

Paladin
Dancer - Dual Short Swords
Dragoon - Polearm
Warrior - Polearm or Sword and Board, sometimes Great Sword.

I never went to a party with only one weapon, and was willing to change weapons out constantly to present the best WS choices possible. Hell with Samurai, I could litterally swap in and out of weapons and skill chain myself with multiple weapons.

[AceofRains]

Technically the only reason they are called classes is because thats how it was localized. In the Japanese Version they are just weapons and don't even have special names. they are just "Sword User" "Axe User" etc.

We should have never called them classes, none of this confusion or rage against the armoury system would have exsisted. I'd have also not locked any skills from cross equipping, as that also leads to people thinking there "Has" to be uniqueness between the weapons when the weapons were already unique.



Uh, Flim Flams were Daggers. They just had special pommels and guards.

And no, I didn't always use a GA on Warrior, a GK on Samurai, Or a Scyth on DRK.

WAR, Depending on Subjob
If Thief - Great Axe, or Great Sword depending on targets.
If Dancer - Dual wield Axes and swords, or Great Axe, Retribution + Organics was a great combo for me
If Samurai - Great Axe, Pole Arm, Great Sword, Bow
If Ranger- Accuracy Daggers + Bow, Outdamaged Rangers constantly.

Samurai, Depending on Subjob or target.
Thief - Polearms and Great Katanas
Dancer - Great Katanas, Daggers, Swords, Polearms.
Warrior - Great Katanas and Polearms
etc.

Dark Knight
Thief - Great Sword
Black Mage - Scyth
Warrior - Great Sword
Ninja/dnc - Dual Axes and or swords

Paladin
Dancer - Dual Short Swords
Dragoon - Polearm
Warrior - Polearm or Sword and Board, sometimes Great Sword.

I never went to a party with only one weapon, and was willing to change weapons out constantly to present the best WS choices possible. Hell with Samurai, I could litterally swap in and out of weapons and skill chain myself with multiple weapons.

mkay. Im just sayin, most parties I had people used their optimal weapon for the job which, i commend you for not being one of those types of people. :]
It is what it is tho, it was RARE that i saw someone break weapon steriotype.
and yes, my flim flam idea was kinda stupid, but you gotta admit, xiv is kinda makin the weapon catagories quite broad.

[Rydin]

Surprised more people haven't speculated about a Quistis Trepe....
You know, Whip class unlocking Blue Mage job later

[Cairdeas]

Surprised more people haven't speculated about a Quistis Trepe....
You know, Whip class unlocking Blue Mage job later

Theres lots of weapons that have been used for different types of jobs over the years.

Blue Mage Alone has had the following weapon choices: Sword, Daggers, Axes, Spears, Whips, Books, Paintbrushes, Bells, Guns and many others.

FFXI decided on its own it wanted Scimitars to be Blue Mages storyline Weapon, but generally they had various and multiple weapons depending on the game.

Every Final Fantasy does tend to treat Jobs Differently, but its generally a part of the storyline.

Tifa Lockheart is a Monk because she was trained by one, "Zanghan" I believe his name was, Not specifically because she uses Hand to Hand Weapons and grappling limit breaks. This was a storyline limitation, the same as Khimari being a Blue Mage that used Spears, the majority of Rhonso's use spears as weapons.

In these single player games the basic character is designed for you. Their weapon is their favorite weapon, is part of the story as their weapon, or is characterized by their character themselves.

These story line lock outs make sense in the single player games because of one thing, Ease of Development and "CHARACTER" diversity. Each character is different because they use different weapons and have special backgrounds that define them as a Job from past FF's even if that job never used the weapon the character itself used. FFIX was the first FF to have Swallows (swords or Daggers attached both sides of a short polearm). FFXIII had a return of the Swallow as a Mix of a Polearm/staff and a Nun-tacku. Fang's weapon was unique to her, It wasn't really a Spear, or Polearm, but a collapsible Swallow, her unique Skills and Summon lead people to believe she is the personification of Dragoon in FFXIII. So one user of the Swallow weapon is a Thief and the other is a Dragoon, that is a huge Job Discrepancy. Even when weapons are defined and strict per character. Thief and Dragoon are completely different jobs at that point but in two different games use the same weapon.

But, when you move to a MMO and it is up to the PLAYER to define their "Character" limiting them to one weapon class choice per job is counter to the whole idea of MMO's, Players Define their Characters. Just because multiple people use similar load outs doesn't mean the choice is not unique. Because you can't say Squall and Seifer are not Unique from each other even though Both use Gunblades and aggressive tactics. It Just means multiple users have similar beliefs.

Restricting Choice in the illusion of helping give Classes, Weapons, or Jobs gain Uniqueness in a MMO actually REDUCES Uniqueness at this point. Why?

Because all Paladins use swords, every paladin will use swords. What is Unique about that in terms of "The Player Defines the Character" which is the core of the MMO scape?

I guess what I'm trying to say in my rambling is this.

There are multiple types of Uniqueness.

1. Uniqueness of Character - The Uniqueness and lack of intentional copies among various characters versus Each Other.

2. Uniqueness of Weapons - The Uniqueness of Weapons in Appearance and Functionality between each other. A Sword uses Slashing, a Club uses Blunt, etc.

3. Uniqueness of Class - The Uniqueness of a class versus other classes. Classes in most MMO's are a collection of similar Roles put under one name allowing the user to pick which role they want, in these games generally you can't change class once you create the character.

4. Uniqueness of Jobs - Simply Put Jobs have their own Roles in a Fight. A White Mage is a Healer. this will never change and never needs to be fixed.


What does this mean in FFXIV?

The Game Was advertised as allowing CHARACTER Uniqueness to the players. The Player is given the Choice of Class and Weapon which are fused to be one entity in the game, though I argue that Weapons should have never been called classes or given unique Names, and now in the future the Choice of Jobs.

But When you limit a Job, which is a Role, to a Weapon, which is a personal choice. You are not Instilling Character or Class Uniqueness but stifling it.

Currently A Paladin will always use Swords. Every Paladin in game uses swords, there is no Character Uniqueness, Everyone uses the same thing.

A Sword user will always be a Paladin, There again is no Character Uniqueness, Everyone who uses a sword uses Paladin as their job.

So the choices for Uniqueness in FFXIV are Character and Class(Weapon)/Job. The Game was Advertised as allowing for Character Uniqueness but this Job System denies it.

The Job System attempts to instill Class(Weapon) Uniqueness but Sacrifices Character Uniqueness to do so.

I propose this isn't Necessary, Because as has been said before Weapons are already Unique, this uniqueness needs to be better expanded outside of the "Class Structure." Again I'd propose to Remove the AOE variations and Toggles for each skill and instead give each Weapon a different system of how it distributes damage when using ANY skill in game.

When a character is in place in combat they receive a "Focused" Status (takes approximately 1-2 seconds to activate on its own) Once this status goes into effect all attacks change from Single Hit to the following Variables and changes. The AOE hits only targets who are engaged by the party to prevent unintentional Adds. This would mean that in a party when fighting a monster party, all members of the monster party need to be "engaged" when even only one is.

Axe Users (Marauder) - Turn all Skills into a 1 unit Arching AOE attack forward so if surrounded by 3 monsters they will hit all 3 but wont hit any monsters behind those monsters even if they are technically in range because the first monster blocks the attack. The More Monsters hit by a single skill will grant a bonus to the Damage to all of them.

Sword Users (Gladiator) - Turn all skills into Spike Damage single target attacks that deal Significantly more damage to a Single target depending on the number of monsters in the Fight, A Sword User fighting 3 monsters will do more damage per hit to one at a Time, the bonus going down as each one is killed.

Polearm Users (Lancer) - Turn all skills into a Line of Sight Attack that can push a skill through multiple targets in a straight line, allowing the user to hit a monster hiding behind another monster and hit up to 3 easily as well as piercing through armor and defense more easily on successive targets. So the 3rd Target in a line of 3 will take more damage the the one closest to the Polearm User.

Bow Users (Archer) - Use Skills at Range. Range increases as Focus lasts, so should the monster move out of range because the party shifts positions slightly the archer can still effectively hit from range. The farther an archer can stand out of range the higher a bonus to damage is granted. Inversely skills like "Blind Side" work even if attacking the monster from the front if attacking from range.

Fist User (Pugilist) - Can not AOE instead when they focus the entirety of the skill used into a single attack or punch which deals significant damage, but the effects and damage bonuses are delayed and turned into a DOT lasting over time instead of happening all at once.

Cone Magic Users (Thaumaturge) - Cast all magic in a Forward Facing Cone DOT Magics are more powerful and Single Hits are less So. No AOE if casted while Moving, AOE if standing still.

Circle Magic users (Conjurers) - Cast all magic as a Circle based Burst AOE, Single hit Magics are more powerful and DOT magics are less so. No AOE if casted while Moving, AOE if standing still.

There each weapon(Class) is now unique from the others and each one has a different way of operating. But a Weapon isn't a Job at this point. A Sword is simply a weapon that becomes stronger when more targets are part of the Fray but can only attack one of them at a time.

With this amount of Uniqueness per weapon there is no reason to limit a Job to one weapon, no I'd declare there is actually a necessity to allow each job to have access to all of them, or atleast ones that best fit. What would that mean?

If the Job can use weapon skills, focuses on physical damage they can use any DOW.
If the Job can use magic and meta magic they can use an DOM.
If the job is a hybrid they can use either DOW or DOM

What does that mean?

A Warrior (Physical Damage Specialist) can use any DOW.
A White Mage (Healing Magic Specialist) can use any DOM.
A Paladin (Tank Healing Hybrid) can use Either a DOW or a DOM.

With this system a Paladin's role is a Tank that uses healing Magics to assist in defense.

A Paladin can use a Sword to increase their damage against a single target when fighting more then one monster at a time increases the speed at which the primary target can be taken down while the other party members concentrate on downing the links and adds.

A Paladin can use a Axe to maintain hate on all the monsters around them in a fight easily.

A Paladin can use Cone Magic Casting weapon to deal Cone Holy and Healing magics to help maintain hate.

The Same Job does the Same Role, its unique to that Role no matter what weapon it uses, but the weapon allows the Character to become unique by defining HOW they perform that Role.

[Rydin]

Longest post ever...

But yea... I'd like that...
If each job was limited to either discipline, or both in the case of hybrids...

I guess a happy medium would have been if they'd released a large amount of jobs.. like 2 to 4 per class initially... And came up with all manner of jobs ranging from DD, to tank, to enfeeble, to nuker to healer to support

[Gojeran]

I don't think this is how the system will work man. They have said before that quests will unlock jobs. So say you are a GLD and want to be a thf (which you seem to want a lot), there is nothing stopping you from doing the quests to unlock PLD and THF from GLD. SE said that the plan at the moment is to only have one job from one weapon but not that it will be that way forever, I think just for times sake ATM they have plan to impliment a single advanced job per base class. Also SE has said that jobs will more or less be "actions for lack of a better term" that you equip to yourself that allow you new abilites that only that job can use but in exchange you lose the ability to equip actions from other classes.

So the way I understand the system based on what SE has said...you could play a GLD until whatever rank they decide to let you unlock jobs, do a quest on GLD to unlock THF, equip your GLD with the THF JOB CLASS- equip a fricking dagger and be happy as a clam. Also whats to stop SE from saying that when eqipped with the job clasess THF, GLD can now use a crossbow or short bow without turning into an archer? Nothing is stopping that from being an equipable ability bistowed from the job THF. Eqiuping GLD with THF job would likely allow you to equip sneak attack and steal or whatever but you would lose the ability to equip curing magic from a THM now because you are playing as a set job now and no longer just a base class. Is this not how the rest of you see this system working? This is how I see the job system working.

[AlexiaKidd]

I don't think this is how the system will work man. They have said before that quests will unlock jobs. So say you are a GLD and want to be a thf (which you seem to want a lot), there is nothing stopping you from doing the quests to unlock PLD and THF from GLD. SE said that the plan at the moment is to only have one job from one weapon but not that it will be that way forever, I think just for times sake ATM they have plan to impliment a single advanced job per base class. Also SE has said that jobs will more or less be "actions for lack of a better term" that you equip to yourself that allow you new abilites that only that job can use but in exchange you lose the ability to equip actions from other classes.

So the way I understand the system based on what SE has said...you could play a GLD until whatever rank they decide to let you unlock jobs, do a quest on GLD to unlock THF, equip your GLD with the THF JOB CLASS- equip a fricking dagger and be happy as a clam. Also whats to stop SE from saying that when eqipped with the job clasess THF, GLD can now use a crossbow or short bow without turning into an archer? Nothing is stopping that from being an equipable ability bistowed from the job THF. Eqiuping GLD with THF job would likely allow you to equip sneak attack and steal or whatever but you would lose the ability to equip curing magic from a THM now because you are playing as a set job now and no longer just a base class. Is this not how the rest of you see this system working? This is how I see the job system working.

The thing I don't like is:

1 - Say GLA unlocks PLD at R30 you can keep levelling your GLA with your PLD to cap, if they raise the cap to 75 you go to 75 and have a PLD at cap as well. Then if they do add more Jobs to a class, say THF to GLA then you also have a THF at cap as well without doing anything apart from the unlock quest.

2 - I am tied to that weapon forever by the sounds of it. If they put DRK in the game it will probably come with a new weapon class of Scythe. So we will have a new class with some silly name that is a Scythe user (not Botanist) then at some point we unlock DRK, from then on I am tied to a Scythe forever. I can not equip a G. Sword on my DRK or any other weapon just Scythes thats it.

People say the freedom this Armoury system gives you is great but I just don't see it. Yeah for solo I suppose it is fantastic being able to put Cures on any Class but other than that it does nothing. To me it seems even more restrictive than FFXI's Job system and that is a step backwards in my opinion.

[Rydin]

The thing I don't like is:

1 - Say GLA unlocks PLD at R30 you can keep levelling your GLA with your PLD to cap, if they raise the cap to 75 you go to 75 and have a PLD at cap as well. Then if they do add more Jobs to a class, say THF to GLA then you also have a THF at cap as well without doing anything apart from the unlock quest.

2 - I am tied to that weapon forever by the sounds of it. If they put DRK in the game it will probably come with a new weapon class of Scythe. So we will have a new class with some silly name that is a Scythe user (not Botanist) then at some point we unlock DRK, from then on I am tied to a Scythe forever. I can not equip a G. Sword on my DRK or any other weapon just Scythes thats it.

People say the freedom this Armoury system gives you is great but I just don't see it. Yeah for solo I suppose it is fantastic being able to put Cures on any Class but other than that it does nothing. To me it seems even more restrictive than FFXI's Job system and that is a step backwards in my opinion.

Well many games you choose your class and thats it, so you're stuck with weapon/class/job for the entire game
Maybe SE is trying to balance freedom and restriction