Is this your first Final Fantasy? Or do you just not remember grinding in past games?

[Eardstapa]

It's still there in gaming today. You'll almost always be "rolling a dice", especially if its an RPG and it's designed not to completely hold your hand.

Except there aren't as many games where you literally roll on everything, but I actually liked those days... To roll for the correct lot number, to then roll for the item you wanted in that lot number, then to roll against other players for said item... Good times.

[SendohJin]

It's still there in gaming today. You'll almost always be "rolling a dice", especially if its an RPG and it's designed not to completely hold your hand.

acceptable RNG is whether you get Firestarter proc or whether you get an Adlo crit. RNG for whether you can or can't complete a quest, that's bad. the playerbase doesn't even allow for RNG to control whether a hit misses or not that's why most people who know what they are doing gear with an accuracy cap in mind.

[Deathscythe343]

The thing is, even though you will be able to keep upgrading it, it will never be the best weapon in the game. There will always be a better weapon that is obtained through a raid, so it isn't as important as you'd think. You can either focus on the Atma weapons for now, go after Allagan, or mix it up. There are choices here, no one is being forced into this grind.

At the moment, the Atma weapons are no where near the top of my to-do-list, especially since there are other weapons I could get. I will eventually acquire an Atma weapon, but for now, I'll just work on it every once in awhile.

Most people are probably doing it now because of the amount of other people also doing them. Zerging the fates makes them a heck of a lot easier. Down the road there will be significantly less people doing them, and by extension, step one of this process will take much much longer.

[skaterger]

My point is that people do not mind the -time- it takes to do the quest,

Again, when you say people, please clarify that its people you know and some other forum posters here. In my own experience in my fc, I have a player who got terribly lucky with this atma drops and got his atma weapon the second day of the patch. Now one week after, he is still on his first book because he realized the enormity of the grind. Another player totally gave up on the animus and decided to get the levi ex weapon. What you people don't seem to realize is that this entire quest chain is a long term grind, both the first and second part, the second part will very likely take more time than the first for most players. If you like to have measurable progress, all the power to you, but for me time is the sole concern, and since I got my last atma yesterday, taking me a total of 1 week, guess how long the second part will take? I don't even want to think about it.

And just because people are not complaining about the books does not mean they will not do so in the future. Most still don't have the atma weapon yet. Please don't make me repeat myself. Thank you for your understanding.

[Tandy]

And just because people are not complaining about the books does not mean they will not do so in the future. Most still don't have the atma weapon yet. Please don't make me repeat myself. Thank you for your understanding.

The books, aside from the rare fates...are quantifiable. You have exactly the same amount of work in them as the next person, period. Sure people might complain....but those complaints will in no way shape or form be about putting in more effort than someone else and receiving less reward. Each person will end up putting about the same work into each book more or less. Yes you can complain about that, but its still fair in the end. You cant in any sane way say RNG mechanics are fair, and in most situations they arent meant to be....they are meant to be like dice rolls. They are inherently chaotic and random, and favor some while eluding others.

The grinding for random drops from fates is a totally different beast from the books.

[skaterger]

The books, aside from the rare fates...are quantifiable. You have exactly the same amount of work in them as the next person, period. Sure people might complain....but those complaints will in no way shape or form be about putting in more effort than someone else and receiving less reward. Each person will end up putting about the same work into each book more or less. Yes you can complain about that, but its still fair in the end. You cant in any sane way say RNG mechanics are fair, and in most situations they arent meant to be....they are meant to be like dice rolls. They are inherently chaotic and random, and favor some while eluding others.

The grinding for random drops from fates is a totally different beast from the books.

RNG (random) number generator is meant to be unfair, I never once claimed otherwise. But if we take the rng away from the game, what else is left in the game?


Is it fair that I had to run CT 50 times for my crimson vest while someone else got it on their first?
Is it fair that twintania crit plummet and auto attack the tank in my grp causing an instant wipe, while dice roll in another group did not roll a critical hit?
Is it fair that I rolled 1 on levi mount while someone else rolled a 98?

In the above examples, a player who drew the shorter end of the stick has to put in more time and effort by redoing/retrying the content because of bad luck. Yet I don't see players making a big crapstorm out of it. You know why? Because players have been ingrained into believing that this is something that should exist in an rpg but if you think about it carefully, its no different from the situation with the atmas. Yet suddenly with the atma issue, people and their mothers are turning tables over it.

But like I said, the generation of gamers today are becoming more cognizant about the time/effort versus the rewards. they expect every single sinew of effort to yield some tangible reward, no matter how small. I wouldn't be surprised to see mmos in the near future take this route, with all semblance of rng gone (for example a boss would have a loot drop down list for players to choose from to ensure that everyone gets something for the effort they put in). The token system is already a step in that direction.

[Calyanare]

In the above examples, a player who drew the shorter end of the stick has to put in more time and effort by redoing/retrying the content because of bad luck. Yet I don't see players making a big crapstorm out of it. You know why? Because players have been ingrained into believing that this is something that should exist in an rpg but if you think about it carefully, its no different from the situation with the atmas.

It's actually not the same, because in two of the examples you gave, whether or not you get the drop isn't preventing you from finishing a quest. In the other one, it's different because the nature of the activity is different (unless you think low level FATEs are as challenging as Twintania) and because the odds are different (much lower chance of getting an Atma than your chances of Twintania not critting at crucial moments, from what I've seen).

Another thing I'll point out is that yes, while RNG is RNG, having to battle it not once but TWELVE times, in order to do a QUEST, is asinine. Yes, it's supposed to be a time sink, and it should be. But it's bad design to make a quest that's supposed to be a time sink completable in 8 hours from luck alone.

The quest is optional, as are the drops. In both cases, you are trying to acquire gear to improve your character. There is nothing stopping you from progressing in the story if you don't complete the quest.

Yet again you fall back to the old "it's optional" argument when you have no answer for what I actually said. Sure, it's optional. Every quest that exists in the game, including the story quest, is optional (if you don't mind not being able to unlock stuff). The fact that it is optional says nothing.

[skaterger]

It's actually not the same, because in two of the examples you gave, whether or not you get the drop isn't preventing you from finishing a quest. In the other one, it's different because the nature of the activity is different (unless you think low level FATEs are as challenging as Twintania) and because the odds are different.

The quest is optional, as are the drops. In both cases, you are trying to acquire gear to improve your character. There is nothing stopping you from progressing in the story if you don't complete the quest. And yes, I do agree with the nature of the activity, did I not say I hate the mind numbing fates?

Yet again you fall back to the old "it's optional" argument when you have no answer for what I actually said. Sure, it's optional. Every quest that exists in the game, including the story quest, is optional (if you don't mind not being able to unlock stuff). The fact that it is optional says nothing.

Are you even reading what you are posting? The "optional" issue was initially brought up you. i merely was refuting your point. Here:

It's actually not the same, because in two of the examples you gave, whether or not you get the drop isn't preventing you from finishing a quest.

[Colt47]

The quest is optional, as are the drops. In both cases, you are trying to acquire gear to improve your character. There is nothing stopping you from progressing in the story if you don't complete the quest. And yes, I do agree with the nature of the activity, did I not say I hate the mind numbing fates?

Oh man, you aren't alone on the fate grinding. That was not one of Yoshi P and Co.'s better design decisions when coming to how to present the next weapon. The other issue is the content locks on the new coil turn 6+ and the EX fights. The main story content and the adventures of the goofy inspector are great as well as the new dungeons, but the end game stuff is at best inoffensive and at worse inconvenient and annoying.

[Calyanare]

i merely was refuting your point.

That doesn't refute anything. Twelve RNGs shouldn't prevent you from finishing ANY quest, optional or not.